Partner opens 1H

[helene_t]

1♠ wtp. 2♠ might work but we might belong in diamonds.

[ONEferBRID]

2♠ a SJS, let partner in on the secret early

Agree with this. Playing with the GIBs has re-introduced me to the joys of SJS.

 

I get to follow-up with 3 or 4♣ to show spades, heart support and club shortness and I like this approach.

Why would any of these auctions

 

1♥ 2♠

2NT 3♣

 

or

 

1♥ 2♠

3any 4♣

 

show shortage?

Playing Soloway jump-shifts (reasonably common in N.A. among pairs that plays strong jump-shifts), the jump-shift shows one of three hands: A balanced monster, a one-suiter, and a two-suiter than includes support for partner. Most glaringly missing - no independent two-suiters. Since responder can't have a two-suiter comprised of spades & clubs, the rebid, by agreement, instead shows shortness (and by implication shows the two-suiter than includes support).

Soloway Type 3 ( where Responder has support for Opener's suit and possible shortage in another ) also requires FOUR card support for Opener's suit.

This hand has only 3 card support .

[ And I agree with the Lobowolf who said holding a strong TWO-suiter, neither of which is support for partner automatically disqualifies this as Soloway ] .

[ONEferBRID]

1♠ for me, keeping it simple. Can't see how this can be nasty, after all I've got support for hearts... Even playing SJSs (I don't), I'd not do it here. Never with a second suit which could be our best trump.

Here's how it gets nasty:

 

1♥-P-1♠-P-

2♣-P-2♦(GF -- note that diamonhds not shown)

3♣-P-3♥-P-

4♥-P-???

 

Is 5♣ here Exsclusion?

 

Or,

 

1♥-P-1♠-P-

2♣-P-2♦-P-

3NT-P-???

 

In other words, focusing hearts later may be complicated, and focusing hearts while enabling Exclusion might be radically difficult.

 

Compare this with an auction where spade re-focus is possible:

 

1♥-P-2♦-P-

2♠-P-3♠

 

Amazingly easy.

 

I hate to say this for fear of wild laughter, but easy sometimes is better.

 

Ken:

 

You seem to be comparing apples and oranges with your examples showing a Sp rebid ( by Opener ) in the latter but Cl rebids in the former.

 

What is wrong with the following re-focus :

1H - 1S

2S - 4C! splinter for Sp re-focus

 

Of course you could have splintered in your 2D! GF! auction as well:

1H - 2D!

2S - 4C! = splinter for Sp

[andy_h]

Don't have any experience in 2♦(or 2♣ for that matter) that can have 5♠'s but only with 4, though it does look semi-attractive...

So I guess it's 1♠ for me.

[kenrexford]

Not that you might not run into trouble later, but it seems exceedingly simple to play:

 

1♥ - 1♠;

2♣ - 3♦ = 5-5 GF

 

Of course it's going to be difficult to show your entire hand, but it's not to say that it cannot be done.

 

You might also argue that some people play 3♦ as INV. So be it. But every system you design is going to have some difficult hands to bid.

 

Obviously if you give me an uncontested auction every time, put me down for relay.

I left that out, even though I play 3♦ as 55GF, because I though that was rare. But, the problem still exists. How can you then focus hearts and keep the auction alive? You are actually already dead here.

[aguahombre]

Ken, and the others who choose 2D to start, must use that approach if they also play a second round jump in diamonds as 5-5GF, because --as Ken says, the jump kills it. But if (after 1S)rebidding diamonds cheaply and then bidding them again is game forcing, it seems that the problem goes away, and responder can still show heart support later--after bidding around the club void.

This would be the case in any auction except for A 1NT rebid by opener. Then, Responder can just take over with "Any Minor Force", find out the strain (if shape responses and follow-ups are used), and later use exclusion if appropriate.

[kenrexford]

Ken, and the others who choose 2D to start, must use that approach if they also play a second round jump in diamonds as 5-5GF, because --as Ken says, the jump kills it. But if (after 1S)rebidding diamonds cheaply and then bidding them again is game forcing, it seems that the problem goes away, and responder can still show heart support later--after bidding around the club void.

This would be the case in any auction except for A 1NT rebid by opener. Then, Responder can just take over with "Any Minor Force", find out the strain (if shape responses and follow-ups are used), and later use exclusion if appropriate.

The problem is still that you are too strong for that.

 

1♥-P-1♠-P-

2♣-P-2♦(GF)-P-

3♣(no spade support)-P-3♦(55)-P-

3NT-P-???

 

If Responder just bids 4♥, that seems to be a reasonable call with a much lesser hand, IMO.

 

AQxxx-Kxx-KQxxx-void

KQxxx-Kxx-KQxxx-void

AKQxx-xxx-KQxxx-void

AKQxx-Kxx-Qxxxx-void

 

Stuff like that.

 

Granted, you could simply bid 2♦ GF and then 3♥ after clubs is rebid by Opener, but that sounds like possibly 2-card without diamond control.

[ONEferBRID]

Ken.... you have done it again ( "apples vs oranges" )

 

Your preferred auction:

1H - 2D! ( GF )

3C - 3H

 

has no advantage over:

1H - 1S

2C - 2D! ( 4SGF )

3C - 3H ( Responder would NOT rebid 3D here )

 

"Level-wise" -- showing 3 card Ht support is the same (3H ).

 

If anything, I would think it more advantageous to have

shown that fine Sp suit ( and keep the Diam suit a "secret"

for the moment ).

The 4SGF action implies the Sp are 5 cards.

 

Your auction shows that "fair" Diam 5 card suit and keeps the

Sp suit a "secret" for the moment.

In either case, you will never be able to show that the "secret" suit

is also 5 cards-- not that it matters -----

EXCEPT if Opener had THREE card Sp support, you would ONLY find that in the 1H - 1S auction going thru 4SGF:

1H - 1S

2C - 2D!

2S - etc

 

Whereas, your auction ONLY allows the Spade suit "re-focus" when Opener has FOUR cards Spades:

1H - 2D!

2S - 3S etc.

[barryallen]

Ken.... you have done it again ( "apples vs oranges" )

 

Your preferred auction:

1H - 2D! ( GF )

3C - 3H

 

has no advantage over:

1H - 1S

2C - 2D! ( 4SGF )

3C - 3H ( Responder would NOT rebid 3D here )

 

"Level-wise" -- showing 3 card Ht support is the same (3H ).

 

If anything, I would think it more advantageous to have

shown that fine Sp suit ( and keep the Diam suit a "secret"

for the moment ).

The 4SGF action implies the Sp are 5 cards.

 

Your auction shows that "fair" Diam 5 card suit and keeps the

Sp suit a "secret" for the moment.

In either case, you will never be able to show that the "secret" suit

is also 5 cards-- not that it matters -----

EXCEPT if Opener had THREE card Sp support, you would ONLY find that in the 1H - 1S auction going thru 4SGF:

1H - 1S

2C - 2D!

2S - etc

 

Whereas, your auction ONLY allows the Spade suit "re-focus" when Opener has FOUR cards Spades:

1H - 2D!

2S - 3S etc.

Your auction shows that "fair" Diam 5 card suit and keeps the

Sp suit a "secret" for the moment.

 

Is this a case of giving or receiving information?

[ONEferBRID]

zheddh.... May we see Opener's hand now ?

 

barryallen .... I don't understand your question .

[zheddh]

zheddh.... May we see Opener's hand now ?

Well, opener's hand here isn't a problem hand. Both 1♠ and 2♦ would work perfectly well.

 

He had a easy heart rebid with xx AQT98xxx x AQ and reaching 6♥ is easy.

 

I played a similar hand a couple of weeks back which is more interesting.

 

[hv=d=w&v=b&n=sathakjtxdjxxxcxx&s=sk9xxxhqxxdakt9xc]133|200|Scoring: IMP

Surprisingly, no one introduced clubs[/hv]

 

On both the auctions, i bid 2♦ because it looked easy to GF and support hearts later, but i think 1♠ is better now.

[mike777]

Ken.... you have done it again ( "apples vs oranges" )

 

Your preferred auction:

1H  -  2D! ( GF )

3C -   3H 

 

has no advantage over:

1H  - 1S

2C  - 2D! ( 4SGF )

3C  - 3H ( Responder would NOT rebid 3D here )

 

"Level-wise" -- showing 3 card Ht support is the same (3H ).

 

If anything, I would think it more advantageous to have

shown that fine Sp suit ( and keep the Diam suit a "secret"

for the moment ).

The 4SGF action implies the Sp are 5 cards.

 

Your auction shows that "fair" Diam 5 card suit and keeps the

Sp suit a "secret" for the moment.

In either case, you will never be able to show that the "secret" suit

is also 5 cards-- not that it matters -----

EXCEPT if Opener had THREE card Sp support, you would ONLY find that in  the 1H - 1S auction going thru 4SGF:

1H - 1S

2C - 2D!

2S - etc

 

Whereas, your auction ONLY allows the Spade suit "re-focus" when Opener has FOUR cards Spades:

1H - 2D!

2S - 3S etc.

ok.....I can agree 1s is fine but given I picked 2d to make things easier:

 

 

1h=2d

over 3d(not extra) or 3c(not extra) or 2nt(not extra) or 2h(6) I bid 3h slam try in h, easy

over 2s(not extra) I rebid 3s slam try, easy

 

 

your post not only seems tough but is tough.....not wrong just tough.....

 

AGain 1s is fine....

[mike777]

edit

[mike777]

zheddh....  May we see Opener's hand now ?

Well, opener's hand here isn't a problem hand. Both 1♠ and 2♦ would work perfectly well.

 

He had a easy heart rebid with xx AQT98xxx x AQ and reaching 6♥ is easy.

 

I played a similar hand a couple of weeks back which is more interesting.

 

[hv=d=w&v=b&n=sathakjtxdjxxxcxx&s=sk9xxxhqxxdakt9xc]133|200|Scoring: IMP

Surprisingly, no one introduced clubs[/hv]

 

On both the auctions, i bid 2♦ because it looked easy to GF and support hearts later, but i think 1♠ is better now.

I think this is a very different hand.

[peachy]

With gameforcing values, it is counterproductive to distort the shape of the responding hand. 1S, completely clear.

[barryallen]

zheddh.... May we see Opener's hand now ?

 

barryallen .... I don't understand your question .

The question I was posing was who should be in charge of this slam investigation? Because I find it difficult to visualise being able to fully describe this hand sufficiently to partner? So the question of hiding the ♠ suit then has less significance?

 

That said, I am in favour of your position but do not believe it is totally clear cut. The one thing I strongly disagree with is what openers hand actually was, this is totally irrelevant.

[rd6789]

How about starting with a splinter? After all you have your fit and describign 5-5 as responder AND support is very tricky if you go round the houses.

 

I know splinters usually show 4 card support but the extra values compensate.

 

On the first hand posted if p has A♦ and AQ♥ we can get to 7

[pooltuna]

How about starting with a splinter? After all you have your fit and describign 5-5 as responder AND support is very tricky if you go round the houses.

 

I know splinters usually show 4 card support but the extra values compensate.

 

On the first hand posted if p has A♦ and AQ♥ we can get to 7

So what are you going to do after partner bids 4♥?

[aguahombre]

A splinter eliminates any partnership auction here. So, Why bother to show the club shortness when you have decided to take over anyway? The only answer I can think of is that you were setting up Exclusion, and you don't know enough yet to do that --or, maybe you do ---hmm. Nah, you would like to know whether partner has extra heart length.

[rd6789]

So what are you going to do after partner bids 4♥?

I am worth 4♠ - by telling partner I am short in clubs he will downgrade say AKJ in that suit and with good hearts he may bid six - after all he only needs AQ to 6 and JD and AQJT to 5 and JD is good too!

 

I have learnt he doesn't have A♦ so I have lost interest in the grand - but if he doesnt have any points on ♠ or ♦ he could well have good ♥

[rd6789]

Nah, you would like to know whether partner has extra heart length.

No, what I want to know is does he have A♦ - if he bids 4♦ and that shows the Ace I will bid 5NT - give partner xx/AQxxx/Axx/xxx and 7 is very good - be nice if he had the J♥ too

[aguahombre]

4D is a mandatory cue over a splinter? My splinters do not show extras unless i take over afterward, but I guess it works on this hand.

[rd6789]

4D is a mandatory cue over a splinter?

I would expect partner to cue bid 4♦ if he held say xx/AQxxxx/AJ/xxx since the hands seem to fit so well. With say xx/Qxxxx/AJx/KQJ he might decide the club values are so poor and the trumps too that he will for now deny the A♦

 

btw if partner bids 4♥ over my splinter I think the bid now is 5♥ - bid slam with good trumps