Slam missing 2 aces

[cRi cRi]

[hv=d=s&v=n&w=sa54hqt6dq965cjt6&e=shak952dkj3ckq973]266|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

The bidding went :

 

Pass Pass 3♠ 4♥

4♠ 5♥ Pass 6♥

 

 

Would you dbl or Bid 5♥ with west hand ? And what if vul were different.

Do you agree with 6♥ ?

 

Additional question, with nobody vul, what would you do as East if partner Dbls 4♠ ?

[Hanoi5]

I don't like 6♥ or 5♥. I don't think double is correct either, but I'm not sure. If partner doubled 4♠ I think I would pass.

[the hog]

I don't like 5H. The distribution is sterile and I think 6H is absurd. The 4H bidder was prepared to play 4H and now, when partner decides she has a raise thinks his hand is worth 6. This is a real insult to partner.

 

By the way, i don't like 4H all that much either and prefer 4C NLM. I think the hand is just good enough for that. If West had doubled 4S I would probably bid 5C.

[gordontd]

I don't understand the 6♥ bid at all.

[mich-b]

I don't agree with 5♥ (too balanced), I would double. As East after the double I would try 5♣ - I usually think that void in their suits suggests bidding one more.

 

And, I think East should not have raised himself to 6♥. West might have stretched to bid 5♥, or bid it as a save.

[OleBerg]

6♥ is ridiculous.

 

5♥ is "gutsy" at best.

[Trinidad]

I don't like any of the heart bids. :)

 

Rik

[cRi cRi]

4♣ over 3♠ would have been natural for us.

 

What hand should be 5♥ then ? and what would be 5♣ or 5♦ over 4♠ (instead of 5♥) ? I guessed a strong ♥ raise with values in the suit, agree?

[mich-b]

What hand should be 5♥ then ? and what would be 5♣ or 5♦ over 4♠ (instead of 5♥) ? I guessed a strong ♥ raise with values in the suit, agree?

 

I would expect more shape for 5♥ , perhaps:

♠xx

♥Qxxxx

♦Qxxxx

♣x

 

5m from west should be fit showing, with values in the suit bid, and generally good hand. But , for us, only because West is a passed hand. If he wasn't PH we think he is allowed to suggest playing in his 7 or 8 card suit.

[Cascade]

I don't mind 6♥. Although I think it is a tad optimistic.

 

I don't really like 5♥ but a penalty (or takeout double) are not great alternatives with undisclosed trump support. And PASS might just allow them to steal when 4♠ drifts off as inadequate compensation for your game.

 

4♥ isn't ideal but if you don't have a two suiter bid available you have to do something. And even if you do have a two suiter bid available it has to cover a wide range of hands. So you aren't always going to guess well.

 

I don't think there is a good solution to all of the problems in a situation like this - competing to the 5-level, investigating slam, doubling the opponents. It is inevitable that we will get some wrong and which ones will depend on our exact agreements and expectations from partner.

[Codo]

6 HEart was agamble, which happens to fail. You hear partner raise and all you need is Qxx in hearts and one minor suit ace to make slam a fair bet.

But if you hear the opps bid vul against not to 4 spade, your slam prospects are seldom big, so passing should be the all time winner.

 

I dislike any possible bid with the West hand (pass, double, 5 HEart), so I won't blame any choice.

[cRi cRi]

What hand should be 5♥ then ? and what would be 5♣ or 5♦ over 4♠ (instead of 5♥) ? I guessed a strong ♥ raise with values in the suit, agree?

 

I would expect more shape for 5♥ , perhaps:

♠xx

♥Qxxxx

♦Qxxxx

♣x

 

5m from west should be fit showing, with values in the suit bid, and generally good hand. But , for us, only because West is a passed hand. If he wasn't PH we think he is allowed to suggest playing in his 7 or 8 card suit.

So, If partner bids 5D or 5C you would bid 6♥ with the East hand ?

[pooltuna]

I hate all the ♥bids. In fact I prefer X to 4♠ to 4♥. With a sure ♠ trick and really bad distribution I prefer X but can tolerate 5♥ because when MY partner bids 4♥ in this auction he is bidding his hand not mine.

[OleBerg]

6 Heart was agamble, which happens to fail. You hear partner raise and all you need is Qxx in hearts and  one minor suit ace to make slam a fair bet.

Hardly. The opponents bid 4♠, so it is likely they have some shape, and any 4-1 fit in thrumphs defeats slam. Also, if partner doesn't hold the ♣J, there will likely be handling-problems in that suit. And finally you have to find the ♦Q.

 

Not only do you need at most one loser for slam, you also need twelve tricks.

[Fluffy]

I don't undertsand any criticism on 5♥. You have 3 card fit for a 4 level overcall on partner, double wihout showing you 9+ card fit is ridicoulous IMO.

 

I think double with East card's instead of 4♥ is better, althou 4♥ is reasonable if you don't play NLP.

 

 

mich-b I think you are very very wrong suggesting that 5♥ should have 5 cards in hearts, you will raise less than once a year then.

 

 

One extra point: Best bid by west is forcing pass if you have that agreement wich I do not.

[WesleyC]

Even if I did have a forcing, non-leaping Michaels bid available, I prefer to double as East. Planning 4H over 3NT/4D, to show a strong flexible hand. The big upside to double is when partner has a bunch of diamonds. (4S) 5D would be a dream continuation. The only continuation that doesn't excite me is all pass. Then again, partner might be excited enough about that for the both of us...

 

After East bids 4H, I think West's 5H is fine. The As, QT6h and minor quacks all look useful. Partner's range for 4H at these colours is pretty wide. 5H could get us to a good slam or might be a couple off vs a making 4S.

 

Back to East now - 6H is Terrible. Immediately after introducing your 5c suit at the 4 level ISN'T the time to be punting slam in it. Pass and hope you've got an 8c fit!

[aguahombre]

Agree with everyone who criticizes 4h, but would bid 4h.

Agree with everyone who criticizes 5H, but would bid 5H.

Agree with everyone who criticizes 6H.

[Fluffy]

Agree with everyone who criticizes 4h, but would bid 4h.

Agree with everyone who criticizes 5H, but would bid 5H.

Agree with everyone who criticizes 6H.

well put :)

[the hog]

Agree with everyone who criticizes 4h, but would bid 4h.

Agree with everyone who criticizes 5H, but would bid 5H.

Agree with everyone who criticizes 6H.

Does that mean you wouldn't bid 6H?

:(

[nigel_k]

... I think 6H is absurd. The 4H bidder was prepared to play 4H and now, when partner decides she has a raise thinks his hand is worth 6. This is a real insult to partner.

I don't agree with this. Bidding over preempts is tough and normal principles don't always apply. Here, East has a good hand but is concerned about the strength of the heart suit. When West supports hearts that concern mostly disappears and the hand can now make slam opposite very little.

 

I would double initially though I understand 4♥. The other two decisions are very hard. Probably I would double instead of 5♥ with West but would continue to 6♥ over 5♥ with East.

[Cascade]

... I think 6H is absurd. The 4H bidder was prepared to play 4H and now, when partner decides she has a raise thinks his hand is worth 6. This is a real insult to partner.

I don't agree with this. Bidding over preempts is tough and normal principles don't always apply. Here, East has a good hand but is concerned about the strength of the heart suit. When West supports hearts that concern mostly disappears and the hand can now make slam opposite very little.

 

I would double initially though I understand 4♥. The other two decisions are very hard. Probably I would double instead of 5♥ with West but would continue to 6♥ over 5♥ with East.

We have a general agreement in competitive auctions that when we are making constructive noises - here 4♥ is constructive - then a free bid at the five-level is allowed to be raised.

[the hog]

... I think 6H is absurd. The 4H bidder was prepared to play 4H and now, when partner decides she has a raise thinks his hand is worth 6. This is a real insult to partner.

I don't agree with this. Bidding over preempts is tough and normal principles don't always apply. Here, East has a good hand but is concerned about the strength of the heart suit. When West supports hearts that concern mostly disappears and the hand can now make slam opposite very little.

 

I would double initially though I understand 4♥. The other two decisions are very hard. Probably I would double instead of 5♥ with West but would continue to 6♥ over 5♥ with East.

We have a general agreement in competitive auctions that when we are making constructive noises - here 4♥ is constructive - then a free bid at the five-level is allowed to be raised.

And thus end up in a slam missing two cashing bullets? Doesn't sound too good to me, Wayne.

[Cascade]

If partner is bidding five to make and we have extras that will often mean we have six. If we don't have Blackwood then we have to guess. Obviously sometimes that guess will mean we guess badly.

 

In just the same way on this hand west guessing to bid 5♥ with a soft hand will be often down one when partner does not produce extras. We simply can't have everything.

[MFA]

I would take-out double 3♠. 4♥ seems unacceptable to me with a thin suit and good minor alternatives. I can correct partner's response to 4♥ to show a flexible hand.

 

5♥ is ok, I like to support in such situations.

 

6♥ seems to be too wild a gamble. Partner had available 4NT T/O followed by 5♥ to show a good 5♥.

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

4NT T/O followed by 5♥ to show a good 5♥.

Yes, I think a possible solution is to use 4NT as a way

to differentiate between a serious 5H bid, i.e. a 5H with

add. values, and a "purely competitive" 5H bid.

 

And in this scenario the West hand would only qualify for

a "purely competitive" 5H bid.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe