Hanoi5 Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 White vs Red, dealer passed, I opened this distributional hand: ♠xx♥AQJTxx♦---♣QJ8xx Pa 1♥ 3♦ XPa 4♣ Pa 4♠Pa ??? What's 4♠? What do I do now? What's going on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 It's some sort of club raise. With a hand that is too weak to bid a forcing 3♠, but nonetheless wants to play 4♠, partner would have simply bid 4♠ instead of starting with a double. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcurt Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Do not agree with TimG. Partner has spades. He also has 4♦ available as a good club raise which is also a cheaper call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 If 3♠ is forcing, I cannot buy 4♠ as spades. This is where you need to know partner and/or have meta-agreements. I personally would have expected: 4♦ = punt. Suggests 4♥ as a possibility, or even 4♠ on a Moysian.4♥ = to play4♠ = CLUBS (maybe RKCB)4NT = Natural5♣ = clubs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlson Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 I think it's spades. Is partner supposed to bid 4h with KQJxxx xx xx Kxx? Is he not supposed to double? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Its a club raise without a diamond control. Why bid 4 diamond as the only strong raise, when you have several ways of raising? So to me 4 diamond had shown a fit and a control. 4 Spade is a fit, a spade control, but no diamond control. If partners hand is just about spades, he could have bid 3 spade or 4 spade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 It's a one-suiter in spades where he planned to convert 3♥ to 3♠, non-forcing. He didn't want to bid 4♠; he's just ended up having to do so because we're at the four-level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 partner should had bid spades if he only has that suit. So we bid 5♦ next Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 I think it's spades. Is partner supposed to bid 4h with KQJxxx xx xx Kxx? Is he not supposed to double? No, he will bid 3S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ONEferBRID Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 I think it's spades. Is partner supposed to bid 4h with KQJxxx xx xx Kxx? Is he not supposed to double?Spades -- to play.I agree with Karlson... to some extent ( Hope this isn't a "kiss of death" for you ) and with gnasher. Partner has a hand not strong enough for 3S-- say K Q T 9 x x, x x, x x, J x x ;and made an appropriate Neg-DBL. And since we are now at the 4-level, he feels chances for 10 tricks are as good, if not better, in Spades than in Clubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdanno Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Spades. Surprised there is controversy about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfay Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 THIS IS SPADES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :( :blink: If he has clubs he has to bid 4♦, end of story! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skjaeran Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Natural for me, a hand not strong enough to force with 3♠ previous round that wants to play in spades anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 I would never make this bid, because if I had the spade hand I would have stretched to bid spades, but if I hd any other hand I would be absolutely insane to make this bid since almost everyone will assume it is spades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peachy Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 It's a one-suiter in spades where he planned to convert 3♥ to 3♠, non-forcing. He didn't want to bid 4♠; he's just ended up having to do so because we're at the four-level. This is what I was going to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Oh there was a long and emotional thread about this a year or two ago! let me try to find it... (it is necessary to link to it here cos there's hardly any chance of this getting so much an input) this is the one: http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=18005 it's not really the same auction but it is a little bit like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 I would never make this bid, because if I had the spade hand I would have stretched to bid spades, but if I hd any other hand I would be absolutely insane to make this bid since almost everyone will assume it is spades. So, for you 4♠ does not exist? What would it mean if you were partnering yourself so you could be 100% confident that no misunderstanding would result? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 I would never make this bid, because if I had the spade hand I would have stretched to bid spades, but if I hd any other hand I would be absolutely insane to make this bid since almost everyone will assume it is spades. So, for you 4♠ does not exist? What would it mean if you were partnering yourself so you could be 100% confident that no misunderstanding would result? It would be clubs playing with myself since I think that's the best treatment, my point was that I would never assume this for anyone else. Playing with a random person I would definitely assume it is spades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=18005 That thread was worth it just for "vituperation". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfay Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Oh there was a long and emotional thread about this a year or two ago! let me try to find it... (it is necessary to link to it here cos there's hardly any chance of this getting so much an input) this is the one: http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=18005 it's not really the same auction but it is a little bit like it. Thanks. That was funny. Anyway, sure they're similar but I think things are generally pretty different when we're talking about ♠ rather than ♥. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=18005 I enjoyed this link for at least four reasons: - I can't believe you remembered this existed.- Vituperation.- The revelation that Justin is clearly going to be the best bridge player in the world, assuming he ever sobers up.- I was happy I gave exactly the same answer, that I think it should be a cuebid but would never make the bid. I wavered a bit more in that problem, but that's because it's a different auction in that the double in that thread shows hearts and spades (at least at first) but the double in this thread only shows spades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Josh, I can certainly see why you gave your answer. It would NEVER occur to me that 4♠ was natural, as any hand that would bid 4♠ on this auction would have bid 3♠ the round before. But it seems that the majority of the posters think it is natural. If the 4♠ bidder had the hand that most are suggesting, he should take a preference between hearts and clubs. Bidding KQJxxx at the 4 level to play opposite a possible void is silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 I would never make this bid, because if I had the spade hand I would have stretched to bid spades, but if I hd any other hand I would be absolutely insane to make this bid since almost everyone will assume it is spades. So, for you 4♠ does not exist? What would it mean if you were partnering yourself so you could be 100% confident that no misunderstanding would result? It would be clubs playing with myself since I think that's the best treatment, my point was that I would never assume this for anyone else. Playing with a random person I would definitely assume it is spades. When I see these sorts of posts, I think of them as "my regular partner and I had a disagreement over this sequence, what should we agree going forward" rather than "I encountered this in a pickup game, what should I expect next time some random partner pulls this". I think the response here is mostly answering the latter and wanted to double-check on the former. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echognome Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 <cheapshot> I can't believe you guys would have a misunderstanding on this auction. Not knowing your system ruins the game for everyone. </cheapshot> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 I would never make this bid, because if I had the spade hand I would have stretched to bid spades, but if I hd any other hand I would be absolutely insane to make this bid since almost everyone will assume it is spades. So, for you 4♠ does not exist? What would it mean if you were partnering yourself so you could be 100% confident that no misunderstanding would result? It would be clubs playing with myself since I think that's the best treatment, my point was that I would never assume this for anyone else. Playing with a random person I would definitely assume it is spades. When I see these sorts of posts, I think of them as "my regular partner and I had a disagreement over this sequence, what should we agree going forward" rather than "I encountered this in a pickup game, what should I expect next time some random partner pulls this". I think the response here is mostly answering the latter and wanted to double-check on the former. Now you are heading where I went in the linked post so long ago. Beware! You will get in trouble with that sort of thinking! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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