mtvesuvius Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 Tonight I picked up this absolute monster hand: AxAKJ9xAAKQxx RHO opens 2♦ weak, what is your plan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcurt Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 I'm going to start with double. I think this is vastly superior to Leaping Michaels, the latter plan will force us to drive to the 5-level to get our values across. This hand is not as good as it looks, we have 4, maybe 5 potential losers and at least one suit rounded suit rates to break poorly. Starting with double also has the merit that I am more likely to find out whether partner has 4 hearts or 3. There's a huge difference on this hand, a 4th trump will let me play to draw trump and throw spades from dummy on the clubs (xxx, Qxxx, xxx, Jxx is 7♥). Hopefully I can extract enough information to make a sensible decision later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 how does leaping michaels work with clubs and an unknown major after a weak 2D? can't that get ugly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jlall Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 4C if i play it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peachy Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 I think I would not be happy defending 2DX if partner decided to Pass. 4C and trust we find our heart fit if there is one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 Definitely 4♣. I'm just forcing to slam, partner will never cooperate on many of the hands where it makes. Not as good as it looks??? Sure if partner has no fit at all! Why are you going to assume that? You say the hand is not as good as it looks, then point out a 3 count that is a grand. That looks good to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 double might help in the sense that if LHO doesn't raise diamonds and parter bids spades you can slow down, but you will never show this hand if you don't bid 4♣ now, primary objective is to play in our best fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 This is why I never understood the popularity of "Leaping Michaels" rather than Roman Jumps. Everyone seems to be scratching their head as to what to bid with Leaping Michaels because of the club-spade problem. With Roman Jumps, you just bid the lower of two tocuhings, with a jump, revolving around if only touching that way or through their suit. So, after 2♦, there is no ambiguity, even without precise discussion to remember. 3♥ for majors, 3♠ for spades and clubs, and 4♣ for clubs and hearts. (4♦ majors stronger) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 This is why I never understood the popularity of "Leaping Michaels" rather than Roman Jumps. Everyone seems to be scratching their head as to what to bid with Leaping Michaels because of the club-spade problem. Which "everybody" are you referring to? Looking though the responses so far, we have four solid votes for 4♣, one respondent who doubles in order to keep the level low, and precisely one who expresses concern about the ambiguity of 4♣. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcurt Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 I agree we should not expect partner to cooperate. after all he has zero key cards for both of our suits. Why then is 4C better than dble? I can always bid suits forcing after the dble and then bid 5N pick to get to the best fit. It seems to me that if the 4C bidders hit their plan they still cannot get to 7 so the implied odds on 4C are poor. Of course I might be making the opening lead against 2Dx. I expect -4. That might be ok since if partner has a hand to pass he probably does not have the cards for a small slam either. Adam did not give us the form of scoring and vulnerability though. Finally, note that many partner hands produce 5-or-7 situations. In my example hand you need all the features to make 6 too, if you don't have running clubs and the ability to draw trumps in tempo you also have a spade loser unless partner produces the ♠K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdanno Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 I agree we should not expect partner to cooperate. after all he has zero key cards for both of our suits. Why then is 4C better than dble? I can always bid suits forcing after the dble and then bid 5N pick to get to the best fit. It seems to me that if the 4C bidders hit their plan they still cannot get to 7 so the implied odds on 4C are poor. Your statement about implied odds is beyond my math understanding but I disagree with the rest of this paragraph. Double, then a new suit at the cheapest level is not forcing. Even if it were, you would never be able to show a 5-5 hand - partner will assume you didn't use Leaping Michaels for a reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcurt Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 I agree we should not expect partner to cooperate. after all he has zero key cards for both of our suits. Why then is 4C better than dble? I can always bid suits forcing after the dble and then bid 5N pick to get to the best fit. It seems to me that if the 4C bidders hit their plan they still cannot get to 7 so the implied odds on 4C are poor. Your statement about implied odds is beyond my math understanding but I disagree with the rest of this paragraph. Double, then a new suit at the cheapest level is not forcing. Even if it were, you would never be able to show a 5-5 hand - partner will assume you didn't use Leaping Michaels for a reason. I can cuebid, then bid my suit, eg (2D)-x2S - 3D3S - Partner bidding spades repeatedly being the least informative partner action. Well, ok, I guess I am forced to leap to slam here, but at least I know we don't have a 5-4 heart fit. I pay off to partner holding SK, HQxx, whatever, Cxx with clubs 5-1 and trumps 3-2 on the left. I also pay off to partner holding a spade suit that lets me pitch the two low clubs. The point about implied odds is simply that our payoff is a function of the likelihood of getting paid off, times the amount we get paid off if things go the way they need to go to get paid off. This is a common concept in poker. For example, when we consider calling with a draw to something, or more commonly a set of somethings, we need to think not about the current pot size, but about the ultimate pot size under the assumption that we hit one of the somethings we are trying to hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 This is why I never understood the popularity of "Leaping Michaels" rather than Roman Jumps. Everyone seems to be scratching their head as to what to bid with Leaping Michaels because of the club-spade problem. With Roman Jumps, you just bid the lower of two tocuhings, with a jump, revolving around if only touching that way or through their suit. So, after 2♦, there is no ambiguity, even without precise discussion to remember. 3♥ for majors, 3♠ for spades and clubs, and 4♣ for clubs and hearts. (4♦ majors stronger)So, in your method is 3h/2D(majors) not forcing because you didn't bid 4D? Is 3s(sp&cl) forcing? What is 3d/2d? A third way of showing the majors, or just looking for a stopper? Want to try the method, but need clarification --and wondering about how strong one-suiters in hearts or spades are then handled without the jump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 In my stupor I also don't understand why 4♣ has worse implied odds than double. Are you going to reach a grand if you double opposite xxx Qxxx xxx Jxx but avoid it opposite xxxx Qxxx xxx xx? I echo cherdanno's concerns about getting both suits in after you double. Your next bid will have to be a cuebid and you will never get your shape across, so all this room you are saving seems like something of an illusion to me. And am I being picky or are you contradicting yourself? This hand is not as good as it looks, but when partner chooses the worst auction possible for your hand you are going to guess to bid slam anyway? In that case why not show your shape to begin with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matmat Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 I'm going to start with double. I think this is vastly superior to Leaping Michaels, the latter plan will force us to drive to the 5-level to get our values across. This hand is not as good as it looks, we have 4, maybe 5 potential losers and at least one suit rounded suit rates to break poorly. Starting with double also has the merit that I am more likely to find out whether partner has 4 hearts or 3. There's a huge difference on this hand, a 4th trump will let me play to draw trump and throw spades from dummy on the clubs (xxx, Qxxx, xxx, Jxx is 7♥). Hopefully I can extract enough information to make a sensible decision later. (2♦) - x - (5♦) - p( p) - ? your move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 I'm going to start with double. I think this is vastly superior to Leaping Michaels, the latter plan will force us to drive to the 5-level to get our values across. This hand is not as good as it looks, we have 4, maybe 5 potential losers and at least one suit rounded suit rates to break poorly. Starting with double also has the merit that I am more likely to find out whether partner has 4 hearts or 3. There's a huge difference on this hand, a 4th trump will let me play to draw trump and throw spades from dummy on the clubs (xxx, Qxxx, xxx, Jxx is 7♥). Hopefully I can extract enough information to make a sensible decision later. (2♦) - x - (5♦) - p( p) - ? your move. 5NT, this one is easy. Given their bidding, you can be certain, that you haveat least a 8 card fit. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo81 Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 I cannot think of any reason not to bid 4♣ Leaping Michaels if I play that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtvesuvius Posted July 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 Sorry for not giving form of scoring and Vul. IMPs, All Vul. So, I assume the consensus is 4♣, now: (2♦) - 4♣ - (4♠) - P(P) - ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 I have zero agreements, so I assume a double of 4 spades would have been penalty and so it would be if ew double now of course. its IMPs, +500 will score better than -100, but so far noting has refrained me from the initial plan on playing slam, I'd sick to 5NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jlall Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 crack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcurt Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 I would take out. Having bid 4♣ the first time, I think we can now bid 4NT not 5NT, nothing precludes us from raising and we might learn something more about the hand. Having doubled the first time, assuming LHO still bids 4♠, 4NT is probably natural. I probably have to bid 5NT now. I still get the main upside of my plan, which is finding out if partner has 4 hearts. Unfortunately I'm going to find that out at the 6 level. I'm still on the fence on whether or not to raise to grand if partner bids 6♥ over my 5NT. In the Leaping Michaels auction the 4♠ call is more likely be concealing a partial diamond fit than here, where it might be ♠KQJTxxxx and out. I need 7 red cards including at least 4 hearts, along with running clubs and hearts, to make grand good. The big spade bid does shift the odds a lot, though, to us being able to avoid losing slow rounded suit tricks. I can handle a spade loser if I can fade all the late rounds of clubs and hearts, so my previous argument about 5-or-7 got blown away by the 4♠ call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 This is why I never understood the popularity of "Leaping Michaels" rather than Roman Jumps. Everyone seems to be scratching their head as to what to bid with Leaping Michaels because of the club-spade problem. With Roman Jumps, you just bid the lower of two tocuhings, with a jump, revolving around if only touching that way or through their suit. So, after 2♦, there is no ambiguity, even without precise discussion to remember. 3♥ for majors, 3♠ for spades and clubs, and 4♣ for clubs and hearts. (4♦ majors stronger) I like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 crack how does partner know you have hearts rather than spades? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtvesuvius Posted July 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 crack how does partner know you have hearts rather than spades? You pat your chest obv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skjaeran Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 Starting with 4♣ looks obvious to me. Over 4♠ I rebid 4NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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