Is the slam really biddable?

[Rob1987]

[hv=n=sahaxxdaxxcakxxxx&s=sj10xxxhkxdkqjxxcx]133|200|[/hv]

 

Ok so I took a punt on this hand. I haven't played with this partner much (actually this was only the 2nd time we've played togather so i didn't understand what was happening properly and I gambled).

 

We ended up in 6D making exactly (the only pair to do so). Can we actually bid this properly or is a gamble the only way to do it? Also is the gamble a reasonable bid given what information can be gathered from this?

 

I actually have 2 bidding 'methods' (and I'm using the word method very loosely here) for this hand as I played it differently from my Dad (we were both sat as South).

 

Mine: My partner opened 1C, I went 1D and he jumped to 3NT. I kinda sensed that he had a great hand here and decided to hazard 4S (I didn't like NT with a singleton club even though he had bid them). After that my partner bid 5D and I risked 6D which made exactly.

 

My Dad's method: His partner opened 2NT. My Dad bid 3H (transfer to spades) and when his P bid 3NT my Dad bid 4D. They ended up in 5NT + 1 (lucky to make + 1 I reckon).

 

My 6D making was a top but I was wondering whether this can be bid or whether it was a terrible bid that was lucky (it was definately lucky but was it worth the risk?)

 

We were both vulnerable and using match points for scoring.

 

Any advice/opinions welcomed.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

[mike777]

nonexpert:

 

1c=1s(Walsh style)

2d=3d(natural and game force)(Structured Reverse style)

3nt?=6d

[PFormaini]

Precision handles it fairly easily:

 

1♣ - 1♠*

2♣ - 2 ♦**

3♦@ - 3 ♥***

3♠**** - 4♦*****

6♦

 

* - Positive response (7+ HCP), 5 or more spades

** - 4 or more Diamonds, 7-10 HCP, biddable suit

@- Support of at least 3 to a high honor. Asks for cue bid if suit is good, 3NT ogherwise.

*** - Heart Control (K or A). Diamonds a real suit sine we are initiating cue-bidding

**** - Spade Control

***** - No other Controls to Show

 

OPener can now place us with the Heart KING and fairly good Diamonds since we have no other cards to show) - and can place us fairly confidently in 6 Diamonds.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

1C (1) - 1S (2)

3C (3) - 3D (4)

3NT (4)

 

(1) SAYC style, I dont like 2NT, open it 2C, if you have too, but I dont like 2NT

(2) you have 5D, 5S, bid spades first

(3) 3C is heavy and you do have a problem, your alternatives are 2D (as suggested in a previous post, but would suggest a 5-4 shape) or 3NT, which is

usually played as showing a good 6+ cards, single (shortage in partners suit) and

stoppers in all 2 unbid suits, 17/18-20HCP (looks perfect, but I would prefer

a better club suit, replace the Ace of spades with a single and make it the Jack

and Queen in another suit, preferably one of those pictures in clubs)

But even after 3NT, most of the time the auction will stopp in 3NT, because

if responder is bidding 4H, 4S over 3NT, that would be a cue for clubs, 4D

would be unclear.

(4) Added later - 3D showes values, could be based on a 3 card suit, and usually

a 5th spade.

 

There are methods out there, which would allow you to reach the slam.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Codo]

You need to stretch to get to this slam, but I think it is possible.

 

Of course, it will be much easier when you anser 1 ♦ to 1 ♣, but this would be horrible. The game is about the majors, so you must bid spades first. Most people would even do it with 5 spades and 6 diamonds, so with 5/5 it is madatory.

 

After

1♣ 1♠

 

openers hand is a nightmare. No second suit, too strong for 3 club.

There are million of playerss who now pretend to have a two suiter and take it from there. I am not used to this approach, so I would downgrade to

 

3♣ 3 ♦ (3 Diamond does not show diamonds, it just asks about spade support and stoppers.

 

3 NT 4 ♦ (3 NT denies 3 spades and shows red suit controls. 4 diamonds shows 5 diamonds at least...)

 

For me 4 Diamond would ask for fit and KCs, but this is not standard. In standard, opener should bid 4 HEart to show a good hand for slam in diamond and you can take it from there.

 

Anyway, you can reach 6 diamond now with some confidence.

[jdonn]

As north I would rebid 2♦ and get there easily. If north rebids 3♣ you shouldn't get there as I don't believe south has any business going higher than 3NT with a 10 count and a singleton club.

[Codo]

Why shouldn't you get there after 3 club? You can find out that partner has at least Qxx and Ax in the red suits, so you are in no danger to explore behind whether or not there is a a diamond fit and enough KCs for 6.

[Fluffy]

2♦ reverse gets you there, but reversing diamonds and hearts puts you in trouble.

 

You can play 3♣ rebids as very heavy, but as long as they are not forcing I think you must rebid 3NT with this one burying the slam today but avoiding te partscore tomorrow.

 

I am biased by the full hand, I can either rebid 2♦ or 2NT.

 

After 2NT partner shows 5-5 at the 3 level getting raised, if he picks to cue hearts you might even reach 7.

[jdonn]

2♦ reverse gets you there, but reversing diamonds and hearts puts you in trouble.

You mean in responder's hand? How?

[matmat]

i guess the precision players haven't posted here yet :P

 

also, in non-walsh style, does one bid diamonds first when one is 55 in the pointed?

[jdonn]

I did not like the precision auction posted, it is very unusual to raise responder's second suit directly with three. The (natural) precision auction seems

 

1♣ 1♠

2♣ 2♦

3♣ 3♦

4♦

 

etc.

[mikeh]

Responding to the OP: the 1♦ bid was very much against normal practice. With 5-5 or 6- hands, the normal approach (and this is universal, I think, amongst good players unless they are playing unusual systems such as canape) would be to respond 1♠

 

This creates a problem for N... my 'solution' would be the mild underbid of 2N... I would want better clubs for 3N... if I had better clubs, I either have to weaken one of the side suits or open 2♣.

 

To rebid 3♣ would be horrendous... you are a full trick stronger than is shown by a non-forcing 3♣. It is true that 2N is also non-forcing, but it shows a stronger hand than does 3♣, so it is closer to the mark.

 

I don't like reversing into 3 card suits at the best of times, and I would not choose a fake 2♦ reverse here... altho I would rank it only slightly worse than 2N, better than 3N and far better than 3♣.

 

Once one has a 2N rebid, responder can show diamonds, ideally via a transfer... note that some methods over 2N make it difficult...but playing transfers, we bid 3♣ then 3♠. This is natural, gf, and suggests 5-5, since we would not be looking for a moysian diamond contract on this auction. North has as slam suitable a hand as can be imagined and will co-operate... looking for grand initially, since south is unlimited... but driving to 6♦

 

BTW, for those who open 1♣ with 4=4 in the minors, the inference about the 5th diamond is absent.... one of the lesser and rarely acknowledged weaknesses of that style.

[jdonn]

(Me again, woot) sorry Mike I really think a 2NT rebid is a lot more than a mild underbid, given that you are a favorite to make 3NT opposite xxxx xxx xxx Jxx, or a grand slam opposite KQJxx xxx xxx Qx, etc. This hand just has way too much power. In fact if I was going to call it balanced, I think opening opening 2NT is a mild underbid.

[aguahombre]

gave the opening bidder's had to two 2/1 people.

 

1c 1S

2D 3D (2D only semi natural at this point --3D non leben 9+ natural)

3H 4H (3H probe/cue better than 3N -- 4H re-cue)

5C 6D (5C still slightly unsure but 4S too dangerous! --6D, enough torture)

[PFormaini]

I did not like the precision auction posted, it is very unusual to raise responder's second suit directly with three. The (natural) precision auction seems

 

1♣ 1♠

2♣ 2♦

3♣ 3♦

4♦

 

etc.

It might be 'unntural' to support with 3 in most cases, but this hand is FAR TOO STRONG to make anhy other rebid. (That is why in many 'Precision' partnerships - such as mine - the raise ASKS OPENER THE QUALITY OF THEIR SECOND SUIT.) - as I posted in the message.

 

If the suit is genuine, partner initiates a Cuebidding sequence. If the suit is weak, partner rebids in NT to signal that they were merely showing shape and that unless the raise is a good one, the suit is probably not playable a a trump suit at a high level.

 

Not really rocket science. <_<

[jjbrr]

It might be 'unntural' to support with 3 in most cases, but this hand is FAR TOO STRONG to make anhy other rebid.

lol...

[jdonn]

Not really rocket science.  <_<

Simple doesn't mean correct.

 

Can you please explain to me why the hand is FAR TOO STRONG to bid 3♣?

[kenrexford]

I like the 2NT opening:

 

2NT-3♥

3♠-4♦ is a good start.

 

However, I cannot get to 5NT after that start. Either opener has the ability to bid something as RKCB for diamonds, after which he bids 6♦, or he doesn't, in which case he bids 6♦ as a guess. An end of 5NT sounds like some botched nonsense.

 

I like the 1♣ opening, prepared to rebid 2♦. At some point, someone bids RKCB for diamonds and gets to 6♦ after that start. I don't care who or how, but I cannot imagine any auction where someone passes a call below the RKCB call for diamonds or where someone bypasses the RKCB call for diamonds, whatever it is.

 

Any other action by Opener is so far off the charts as to be simply ridiculous (anything except opening 2NT or 1♣...2♦), except that (as Josh suggested) I could stomach 2♣...2NT as a start. Kind of funny start.

[Jlall]

Ken you of all people, the supreme lover of controls and playing strength, like opening this hand 2N? My world is crumbling.

 

Opening 1C and rebidding 2D is just so auto wtf. Now that I mention it...you Ken, the lover of bidding fake suits...