How to find 7

[Rob1987]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sak109xxxhakxxdjcx&s=sqxxhqxdaxxxcakxx]133|200|[/hv]

 

My Partner and I play Benji 2s so we're agreed that with North on open he should open 2C to say that he has a strong 2 bid. The way we play benji South has to bid 2D as a relay so that North Can show which suit his strong 2 is in. With the hands as they are 7S is cold (as is 7NT actually).

However we're undecided on the best way to find our way into 7 and not stay in 6.

Here are our thoughts so far (assuming that East/West stay silent):

 

Option 1: 2C by North, 2 Diamonds by South, 2S by N, 4NT by S (RKCB), 5C, 5NT (asking for an outside king), 6H, 7S.

 

Option 2: 2C by North, 2D by S, 2S by N, 4S by S, 4NT by N (RKCB), 5S by S, 7S by N

 

Option 3: 2C by N, 3C by S (Showing strength by breaking the relay), 3S by N, 4S by S, 4 NT by N (RKCB), 5S by S, 7S by N

 

Option 4: North opens at the one level to allow more time to communicate.

 

I know there are other options but these are the ones which we've thought of as most likely.

 

Please post what you think the best way of bidding it would be.

 

Thanks

[manudude03]

Not exactly scientific, but maybe:

 

2C-2D

3S-4NT

5C/D-5NT

6H-7S

 

3S should really show a one suited hand just short of a benji 2D opener. Helps when North doesn't misanswer RKCB :unsure:.

[cherdanno]

If the auction starts with 2C-2D-2S, you need to have a forcing raise. Would 3S be a non-forcing raise?

[gnasher]

2♣-2♦;2♠-3♠ is forcing facing a Benjamin 2♣.

[cherdanno]

2♣-2♦;2♠-3♠ is forcing facing a Benjamin 2♣.

In that case, this is what South should bid!

[helene_t]

Option 2 is impossible, since the 2♣ opening is limited, so when S bids 4♠ that settles it. Just like

1NT-3NT

6NT

is impossible.

 

I agree with Arend (Cherdano) that it should start

2♣-2♦

2♠-3♠

Now North bids either 4♣ or 4♥ depending on you cuebidding style, I suppose he could also bid 4NT since he has controls in all suits.

[gnasher]

I think the North hand is a 1♠ opening. It doesn't look like "eight playing tricks", "a hand of power and quality", "strong", or any of the other definitions I've seen for a Acol Two or Benjamin 2♣.

 

Assuming that the rest of the system is Acol, I suggest something like

1♠-2♣

3♠-4♦

4♥-5♣

5♥-6♣

7♠

It doesn't really work for responder to take control with 4NT, because a grand slam would be poor opposite AKJ10xx AKx Qx xx. In the actual auction, responder consults opener and opener accepts because he knows his extra trump is useful.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

An 2C opening is fine, you have a strong 1-suiter.

Added later: I have read gnashers comment, that this is not a 2C

opener, I can follow this comment, although I think I would have

opened the hand 2S, if playing Acol 2s.

 

Similar 2D after the 2C opening bid is fine, responder knowes that

the partnership will play a small slam, and he should give opener the

most room to describe his hand.

Breaking the relais should show a good suit, and this means at least

5 cards, and if you bid a minor it should show a good 6 card suit.

 

My suggestion would be

2C - 2D

2S - 3S (1)

... (2)

 

 

(1) game forcing, should promise at least two cue bids.

This is similar, if the opening would have been a Acol 2 2S,

the single raise would promise a hand which wants to investigate

slam.

(2) The RKCB asking sequence can reveal both Aces,

the king of clubs and the Queen of spade in responders

hand, it is not clear that you will be able to get rid of

the heart looser.

Given this you can bid 6NT with confidence, that it makes,

but not 7, but since you may playing a simple system

you have to take your chances at least sometimes.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[the hog]

Sorry Uwe, but 2C is terrible. Agree with Andy, this is not 8 playing tricks and it is a 2 suiter.

 

1S 2C

2H 3S

3NT 4C

4D 4S

4NT 5NT

6D

 

Looks easy -

3NT serious, 4C cue, 4D cue, 4NT KC, 6D do you have anything else? 7S yes

[Free]

I agree that opening 2♣ is a poor choice, however, since the initial poster forced us to do this, we shouldn't come up with auctions starting with 1♠ (that's too easy ;) )

 

2♣ - 2♦

2♠ - 3♠ (♠ ; forcing raise)

4NT - 5♠ (RKC ; 2 keycards + ♠Q)

6♥ - 7♠ (3rd round control in ♥? ; yes)

[gnasher]

I agree that opening 2♣ is a poor choice, however, since the initial poster forced us to do this, we shouldn't come up with auctions starting with 1♠ (that's too easy  ;) )

 

2♣ - 2♦

2♠ - 3♠ (♠ ; forcing raise)

4NT - 5♠ (RKC ; 2 keycards + ♠Q)

6♥ - 7♠ (3rd round control in ♥? ; yes)

So having overstated his hand by bidding 2♣, opener now takes control and drives slam?

 

As played in England, 3♠ doesn't promise the earth: xxx xxx Kxx Axxx would be sufficient, and slam is hopeless opposite that. Against that, xxx Qxx xxx Axxx would probably not be worth 3♠, and slam is cold.

 

Those examples, not unsurprisingly, tell us that Blackwood isn't the answer. If you start with 2♣, a possible sequence is:

 

2♣ - 2♦

2♠ - 3♠

4♥ - 4NT (4♥ really should be a second suit here)

5♠ - 5NT (opener knows of a ten-card fit, so shows ♠Q)

6♥ - 7NT (6♥ = ♥K)

 

Responder, knowing of seven spades opposite, can count 13 tricks.

[Free]

I'm no expert in Benji 2♣ openings, but if you hold the North hand, all you need to know is the number of Aces and if there's a 3rd round ♥ control. So yes, imo opener should take control, since he knows best what he needs.

[aguahombre]

I agree that opening 2♣ is a poor choice, however, since the initial poster forced us to do this, we shouldn't come up with auctions starting with 1♠ (that's too easy  :) )

 

I guess I misread the poster. I didn't think we were forced to use 2C on this hand, just because we have it to use.

 

1S 3NT (spade tolerant, choice)

4NT 5S

7S

[gnasher]

1S 3NT (spade tolerant, choice)

4NT 5S

7S

That looks like yet another auction where Blackwood doesn't tell you what you need to know. Can't responder have Qxx Jxx Axx AKxx?

[gnasher]

I'm no expert in Benji 2♣ openings, but if you hold the North hand, all you need to know is the number of Aces and if there's a 3rd round ♥ control.  So yes, imo opener should take control, since he knows best what he needs.

Well, only if you're playing 1430. If you play 3041, you'll have a problem after 4NT-5♦, because you can't ask about third-round heart control at the five-level.

 

Also, you seem likely to miss a small slam opposite xxx xxx AKQx xxx and a grand slam opposite xxx xxx AKQx Axx.

[aguahombre]

1S 3NT (spade tolerant, choice)

4NT 5S

7S

That looks like yet another auction where Blackwood doesn't tell you what you need to know. Can't responder have Qxx Jxx Axx AKxx?

not sure I would give pard an immediate choice of 3nt or 4sp with JXX in a side suit....barely willing to do it with QXX. More like to have QTX or QJX.

[Codo]

7 spades to the Ak and Ak of hearts read like about 8 tricks to me, so I would open 2 Club.

 

2♣ 2♦

2♠ 3♠

4♣ 4♦

4♥ 4 NT

5 ♦ 5 NT

6♥ ...

 

Responder now knows, that partner has AK in both majors and a short club, because of his cue in club. He knows that partner has no minor king (6 ♥) and minimum for his bidding (no serious 3 NT). He can count 3 heart tricks (besides a possible 7231 hand) , 1 Diamond and 2 Club, so he needs 7 Spade tricks. That makes it odds on for the slam- partner with so few aces and kings will have at least 6, normally 7 spades to justify the opening.

[Rob1987]

Thanks for the replies everyone - they were a great help (especially pointing out that I'd stupidly misbid RCKB by north - oops!). I particularly like Gnasher's way of finding 7NT! Nobody would beat that ;)

 

How are you counting the 8 playing tricks? I thought that basically we could assume a reasonable distribution so with spades as trumps I can count on 6 spade tricks (if not all 7 with a perfect distribution) and 2 heart tricks - that gives a reasonable 8 or 9 if you're pushing it. Am I wrong to assume that kind of distribution?

 

I wasn't limiting the open to 2C, 2D. Option 4 is a 1S open ;)

 

Can I assume from this that nobody thinks 2C 2NT is a good way of south showing his better than average hand by breaking the relay?

 

I think that really my partner and I need to learn some more cue bidding.

 

Thanks again!

[helene_t]

How are you counting the 8 playing tricks? I thought that basically we could assume a reasonable distribution so with spades as trumps I can count on 6 spade tricks (if not all 7 with a perfect distribution) and 2 heart tricks - that gives a reasonable 8 or 9 if you're pushing it. Am I wrong to assume that kind of distribution?

I agree with that.

 

But not all hands with 8 playing tricks should open at the two-level. For example not

x

x

KQJ

QJTxxxxxx

 

One reason for opening at the two-level is that you are afraid that a one-level opening will be passed out and you miss game. This is the case when you have many points. Especially when your one-level opening would be 1♠ (or when it would be 1♥ and you have length in spades also).

 

Another reason could be that you have no good rebid after a 1-level opening. Say

AKx

Axxxxxx

AKx

-

 

A third can be that you want to show a hand with extreme slam potential.

[gnasher]

1S 3NT (spade tolerant, choice)

4NT 5S

7S

That looks like yet another auction where Blackwood doesn't tell you what you need to know. Can't responder have Qxx Jxx Axx AKxx?

not sure I would give pard an immediate choice of 3nt or 4sp with JXX in a side suit....barely willing to do it with QXX. More like to have QTX or QJX.

Your responder actually did it with Qx.

[barryallen]

I agree that opening 2♣ is a poor choice, however, since the initial poster forced us to do this, we shouldn't come up with auctions starting with 1♠ (that's too easy  :( )

 

2♣ - 2♦

2♠ - 3♠ (♠ ; forcing raise)

4NT - 5♠ (RKC ; 2 keycards + ♠Q)

6♥ - 7♠ (3rd round control in ♥? ; yes)

So having overstated his hand by bidding 2♣, opener now takes control and drives slam?

 

As played in England, 3♠ doesn't promise the earth: xxx xxx Kxx Axxx would be sufficient, and slam is hopeless opposite that. Against that, xxx Qxx xxx Axxx would probably not be worth 3♠, and slam is cold.

 

Those examples, not unsurprisingly, tell us that Blackwood isn't the answer. If you start with 2♣, a possible sequence is:

 

2♣ - 2♦

2♠ - 3♠

4♥ - 4NT (4♥ really should be a second suit here)

5♠ - 5NT (opener knows of a ten-card fit, so shows ♠Q)

6♥ - 7NT (6♥ = ♥K)

 

Responder, knowing of seven spades opposite, can count 13 tricks.

If you are playing this system I do not feel opening 2♣ is a poor choice, maybe not the best example. The original Acol 2 would normally be far stronger but I don't believe it would come as a big surprise for anyone to open this one today?

 

Would agree that the 4♥ bid would represent a second suit completing the picture, as opener has the opportunity to bid 3NT or possibility of 4♣ to get things rolling. Once you get that 4♥ bid it gives you a very good picture of openers hand and you would expect to find that length in the ♠ and the ♥ suit headed by the AK, given your holding.

 

Once you get that 4♥ bid and what that signifies, either partner should be capable of seeing this to 7?