How do you show attitude?

[Hanoi5]

Suppose I lead the Ace in a suit you bid, what card would you play (standard signals) in each of these occasions:

 

a. KJT8653

b. JT95432

c. QJT843

d. KT98432

 

There are two small cards in dummy, which card would you play in each case if you:

 

1. wanted a continuation

2. wanted the highest suit (not trumps) to be played

3. wanted the lowest suit (not trumps) to be played

4. were not sure what you want next, just want to signal appropriately in spades

[OleBerg]

Assuming I have bid forcefully enough to tell partner I have at least six, this is a possibility:

 

Low = Encourage

 

High even = High suit

High odd = Low suit

[helene_t]

Ahem, the OP assumed standard signals, Ole.

[OleBerg]

Ahem, the OP assumed standard signals, Ole.

Yes, sorry.

 

(Unfortunately I only know what is "standard" signals in Denmark.)

[Echognome]

Somewhat a loaded question. If we are playing "standard signals" then you have to tell us what "standard" means. If you mean "High encourages, low discourages" then we can send only two signals. There may be some "standard exceptions", such as playing the Queen with QJTxx.

 

However, if you extend to the question of what an expert partnership might agree, playing standard signals otherwise, you might have a little more bite to your question. If partner knows I have a five card suit (e.g. I overcalled), then we play after the lead of an A or K that high means shift to the highest non trump suit. Low means shift to the lowest non trump suit. And finally a middle card says to continue the suit.

 

However, I wouldn't consider that "standard signals", but I also wouldn't think it an uncommon treatment.

[Hanoi5]

You bid the suit over their 1NT opening and responder is playing a partscore at the 3 level.

 

When I say standard signals I mean that High encourages, low discourages. This problem arose 'cause I led the suit and partner's card meant something to me but not the same to him so we ended up losing 14% MP's in the hand.

[jdonn]

At what level did I bid the suit? Did you support it? What is dummy? What is the contract? What do we lead from AK in partner's suit?

[Hanoi5]

[hv=n=s72hak2dakt64cq97&e=skjt8653hj8d973c6]266|200|[/hv]

 

Or

 

[hv=s=sjt95432h875dckj6]133|100|[/hv]

 

[hv=s=sjt95432h875dckj6]133|100|[/hv]

 

[hv=s=sjt95432h875dckj6]133|100|[/hv]

 

1NT 2♠ Pa Pa

3♦ Pa 3♥ Pa

Pa Pa

[karlson]

I think it's reasonably standard to play that if you've shown a lot of length in the suit, middle is encouraging, and high/low are suit preference. That's the way I first learned it.

 

Of course how much "a lot of llength" is will depend on context. I think 5 is almost always not enough, and 7 is always enough.

 

I would signal that way on this hand, especially because partner having stiff A is not at all unlikely and he will need suit preference.

[ONEferBRID]

On the FIRST lead ( the Ace ) you can only show Attitude ( Encourage or discourage ).

You cannot show an encrypted suit preference on the opening lead when following suit -- it's illegal in tournament play.

On the SECOND lead --if it is the KING you can show COUNT or Suit Preference -- with Suit Preference being obvious when there were only 2 cards in dummy.

[CSGibson]

On the FIRST lead ( the Ace ) you can only show Attitude ( Encourage or discourage ).

You cannot show an encrypted suit preference on the opening lead when following suit -- it's illegal in tournament play.

On the SECOND lead --if it is the KING you can show COUNT or Suit Preference -- with Suit Preference being obvious when there were only 2 cards in dummy.

I don't know what you're talking about using "encrypted" suit preference, but here in ACBL land it's not illegal to play suit preference on opening lead. In fact, when I've preempted, it's common to use my lowest card to encourage the lowest suit switch, a high card for the highest suit switch, and a medium card for continuation or trump, whichever makes sense. That's also a common treatment if dummy hits with a singleton or with any other cards that indicate that an immediate switch is called for, rather than count or attitude.

 

Other people use suit preference as the primary signal, playing a first trick system called obvious switch, popularized by the Granovetters.

 

In fact, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that you are making stuff up. Please cite a source showing what you are talking about.

[ONEferBRID]

You can use a "dual purpose " signal , such as Odd/ Even, on your first DISCARD

only... not on just following suit to your partner's opening lead of the ACE when Suit Preference is NOT "obvious".

 

With 2 small in dummy, you give Attitude or Count first--whatever your agreed system is. Suit Preference is not obvious.

 

However, if dummy has a singleton or void on the opening lead, then Attitude and Count become unimportant and you can then make a Suit Preference signal--normally High for the higher rank of the 2 remaining nontrump suits.

 

Making this up?

Review the ACBL rules.

[peachy]

You can use a "dual purpose " signal , such as Odd/ Even, on your first DISCARD

only... not on just following suit to your partner's opening lead of the ACE when Suit Preference is NOT "obvious".

 

With 2 small in dummy, you give Attitude or Count first--whatever your agreed system is. Suit Preference is not obvious.

 

However, if dummy has a singleton or void on the opening lead, then Attitude and Count become unimportant and you can then make a Suit Preference signal--normally High for the higher rank of the 2 remaining nontrump suits.

 

Making this up?

Review the ACBL rules.

First you said, earlier, that it is ACBL-illegal to signal suit preference at trick one.

Now you say it is ACBL-illegal to signal suit preference except when dummy has a singleton.

 

What is your source? Link please.

[ONEferBRID]

When I said at "trick one" the first time it was pertaining to the author's posting showing TWO cards in dummy.

[CSGibson]

When I said at "trick one" the first time it was pertaining to the author's posting showing TWO cards in dummy.

There's a space on the ACBL convention card for suit preference as the primary signal. You're full of crap when you say that it's illegal. Show a source.

[Phil]

I have a good rule for situations like this:

 

"3rd hand gives the opening leader the signal that he thinks partner needs to know"

 

Here, cashing a 2nd spade (except perhaps at MPs) is secondary to directing the defense. Pard isn't over ruffing dummy.

 

Further, there is a good chance partner's lead is a singleton Ace, our signal should be suit preference, as Karlson suggests.

 

Therefore:

 

KJT8xxx, 9xx, Jx, x: I would play the 8 as a middle card suggesting a continuation.

 

JT9xxxx, xxx, void, KJx: I would play the Jack, which suggests diamonds. Partner's diamond spot will tell me where the ♣A is.

 

JT9xxxx, xxx, x, Kx: I would play the 2. While a club shift might blow a trick, beating this hand is going to be difficult if partner does not have the ♣A.

 

JT9xxxx, xxx, QJx, void: Again the 2 for obvious reasons.

[jdonn]

You play the K Q or J or T from the top of a sequence (not interior sequence) involving those cards, the highest other card you have to encourage a continuation without a sequence, else the lowest card you have to discourage a continuation. I don't think suit preference factors into it (it would obviously be legal though!)

[ONEferBRID]

I stand corrected. You CAN have the "primary agreement" that the first trick show Suit Preference ( if you really want that ) and not Attitude and not Count, but you cannot have encrypted, dual meanings, such as Ole suggested ( the 2nd post ): a Low card = Enc and a High-Even/Odd = Suit Preference.

 

I guess it was Ole's illegal system that set me off.... and I thought the original poster was thus asking for a dual message signal at trick one.

I see now he must be asking for "either/or".

 

From the ACBL website:

 

"If the card you play to the first trick shows suit preference to the other 2 suits.. etc, etc... then check the box".

 

" If you only use this signal when there is a singleton or void in dummy in the suit partner led, then do not check the box".

 

ACBL further states in general regarding carding:

"Dual message are not approved except on each defender's FIRST discard .

Except for the first discard, only right-side-up or upside-down card ordering strategies are approved. Encrypted signals are not approved. In addition, any pair may be prohibited from playing any method ( such as suit preference systems at trick one ), when they are deemed to be playing it in a manner which is not compatible with the maintenance of proper tempo ( much like dual message signals). .... "

[gnasher]

Why would someone who lives in Denmark care whether his signals are legal in the ACBL?

[OleBerg]

Why would someone who lives in Denmark care whether his signals are legal in the ACBL?

Indeed, I do not care. And quite a good point, ACBL isn't the world.

 

But I am curious.

 

Would the signal I described really be illegal in ACBL???

 

Are they considered to be encrypted???

 

(In Denmark encrypted signals are allowed, but I am quite certain that the aforedescribed signal wasn't considered to be encrypted, when it was discussed whether to allow encrypted signals or not.)

 

Edit: What is "dual message"?

[ONEferBRID]

 

What is "dual message"?

 

Your signals are not in the encrypted category.

They are not "secret" since you have described them .

 

But, your hi/lo //odd/even signals on opening lead is a "dual message" system.

 

( I wish I could use it ... ) B)

[OleBerg]

 

What is "dual message"?

 

Your signals are not in the encrypted category.

They are not "secret" since you have described them .

 

But, your hi/lo //odd/even signals on opening lead is a "dual message" system.

 

( I wish I could use it ... ) B)

Allow me to ask again:

 

What is a "dual message" system?

[OleBerg]

Ok, maybe I've got it.

 

A "dual message" system is something that conveys two types of messages? In my case suit-preference and encouragement/discouragement?

 

So if the director is called, what if I state that small cards are suit-preference for the played suit, while high cards are suit-preference for the other suits?

 

Seems like just a reorganization of the other agreement; high for high suit, middle for the played suit, and low for low suit.

 

Well, before I started on this site, I would have believed that anyone who claimed such rules were in effect in ACBL, was trying to pull my leg. However, having read the strangest descriptions, from well-respected posters, I am ready to believe much more.

 

Still, a link to satisfy my curiosity would be nice.

[ArtK78]

I will explain what a dual message signal is.

 

First of all, as noted above, dual message signals are allowed on the first discard of each defender. Dual message signals include Lavinthal and Odd/Even discards.

 

Lavinthal discards are a discard of a suit in which a play is not desired (message one), with a higher card indicating a preference for the higher suit and a lower card indicating a preference for the lower suit (message two).

 

Odd/Even discards are a discard in a suit of an odd card if a play in that suit is desired or an even card if a play in that suit is not desired (message one). In the case of a discard of an even card, a high even card implies a preference for the higher ranking of the other two suits and a low even card implies a preference for the lower ranking of the other two suits (message two).

 

Until I found that it was not legal to play, I played a dual meaning signal at trick one if I was third hand and the lead was in a suit in which I was known to hold many cards (such as a suit that I had preempted). An even card indicated an even number of cards in the suit, and an odd card indicated an odd number of cards in the suit (count - message one). A high card was discouraging, and a low card was encouraging (upside down attitude - message two). This carding method was written up a number of years ago in The Bridge World. Quite frankly, I find it hard to understand why this particular method would not be legal, but it is clear from the regulation that it is not.

[ONEferBRID]

On opening lead of partner's Ace, you play:

Low card = Encourage

but a HIGH card sends a "dual message":

1) Discourage AND

2)Suit Preference depending on whether the card is odd or even....

You play of the 2 remaining suits:

odd = lower rank suit

even = higher rank suit.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

I play Odd/Even ( or Roman ) Discard ( because generally it contains the most options to send your "message":

On the first discard (and the first only):

Odd = I like this suit

Even = Lavinthal( "hate" this suit and the size indicates suit preference).