1nt-2c-2nt with both majors in SEF

[kaltstart]

Since many French players answer 2nt after stayman with both majors, I´d be interested to get some informations about this treatment. I guess one cannot bid garbage stayman knowing that the answer on 2♣ might be 2nt, which might be a (slight?) disadvantage. Another disadvantage might be to inform the opponents about the distribution, which could help them in defending.

 

What advantages does the convention have opposite to answering 2♥ with both majors and reverting to ♠, if necessary? I´m especially interested how the further bidding works, e.g.

 

- confirming a fit. My partner for example bidded 3♣ to confirm a ♥-fit; I guess, 3♦ would show the ♠-fit. Is this the common treatment in SEF? Is it showing some range of hcp, like inv+? What would other bids after 2nt mean?

 

- differentiating the route to game or slam with inviting, gf or gf+-hands with one fit in a major. I´m really clueless there.

 

- gf hands with no 4card major, but good minor(s), with slight slam interest. Maybe those hands wouldn´t be bid via stayman anyway; just asking in case they would.

 

I hope I am posting in the correct forum. Anyway, thank you in advance for any help.

[Codo]

I do not play this stuff anymore because the drawbacks are bigger then the advantages.

 

For your questions: Obviously no more garbage stayman. But this is no big deal opposite a strong NT.

 

The given information is a huge point. You inform your opponents (bad) and partner (good). To me this did hurt more then it gains, this is why I stopped to play it.

 

2 step transfers are common after such a 2 NT response. The direct bid of a major suit shows slam interesst and here the systems works best: You can ask the limited dummy and declarers hand is concealed.

 

The transfers are invitational+ , so 3 club shows 4 hearts and 8-14 HCPs.

 

I am not sure what the French standard is regarding slam with a minor, but it is certanly not via stayman.

[helene_t]

The advantages I see is that one can invite for NT game with or without a 4-card spades:

 

1NT-2♣

2♥-2NT

 

and it doesn't matter whether responder has a four-card spades or not.

 

The same is true if responder's second bid is 3m.

 

It frees

1NT-2NT

for other purposes while at the same time

1NT-2♣

2♥-2♠

can show an invitational hand with 5+ spades (admitted, you can't bid 1NT-2♣-2♦-2♠ with a weak hand with 5♠4♥), so you can also free 1NT-2♥-2♠-2NT/3♠ for other purposes.

 

Agree with Roland that the disadvantages are bigger than the advantages.

[the hog]

I see no advantages and it removes garbage stayman. What do you bid on:

xxxx

xxxx

xxxx

x

 

?

[Codo]

I see no advantages and it removes garbage stayman. What do you bid on:

xxxx

xxxx

xxxx

x

 

?

Hi Ron,

 

I pass and avoid the 4-2 fit after 2 Diamond opposite a typical 3325 hand.

 

And when I have a slam going hand, the bidding will be at 3 heart and I know that opener/dummy has 44(32) and 15-17 HCPS.

Try to have so much knowledge after any normal strong NT opener.

 

So, maybe now you can see at least one advantage of this system.

 

The advantages (some better games, nice slam bidding, freeing 1 NT 2 ♣ 2 ♥ 2 ♠) are there.

 

But the disadvantages are higher for most players.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

We played it, and it did work ok, we did not feel, that we were missing

a lot not playing garbage stayman.

 

The adv. noone has mentioned yet is, that playing 2C as inv.+, you

can handle intervention after your Stayman bid easier, since you

are basically in a forcing pass situation.

 

All in all I dont think, that you need to play weak stayman, if you play

strong NT, that does not mean, you have to play the french version

 

The amount of add. infomation leaked to the opponents is not that huge,

basically the only case this happens is, if declarer is 4-4 in the majors.

 

We did play Australian Stayman / Extended Stayman, which goes even

further than the version mentioned in the original pot.

We switched to Crawling stayman, as we switched to weak NT, which

occurred 2-3 weeks ago.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[kfay]

I see no advantages and it removes garbage stayman. What do you bid on:

xxxx

xxxx

xxxx

x

 

?

Hi Ron,

 

I pass and avoid the 4-2 fit after 2 Diamond opposite a typical 3325 hand.

 

And when I have a slam going hand, the bidding will be at 3 heart and I know that opener/dummy has 44(32) and 15-17 HCPS.

Try to have so much knowledge after any normal strong NT opener.

 

So, maybe now you can see at least one advantage of this system.

 

The advantages (some better games, nice slam bidding, freeing 1 NT 2 ♣ 2 ♥ 2 ♠) are there.

 

But the disadvantages are higher for most players.

Roland v. The World

[kenrexford]

EVery so often, I think about whether some additional options should exist for Opener. I end up thinking about stuff like 2NT, 3♣, and 3♦ showing maximums with long diamonds and defining major length (2NT both 3-card, 3♣/3♦ flagging one 3-card major). The idea to "diamonds" is that partner rarely is upset with a diamond call, as he often has diamonds anyway.

 

Then, I get better.

[jdonn]

The 'advantages' are illusory. Don't play it if you know what's good for you. The reason people play it is because they can.

[Codo]

Roland v. The World

May you explain this comment?

 

Do you think that the world like 2 NT to show both majors and disagree with my view that this is inferior?

 

Do you think that FES players are not part of your world?

 

Or do you think that the world like just to state their opinion instead of trying to explain what they think?

 

Or do you think that the world is too stupid too see that there are pros and cons in many approachs to the game and that a black/white thinking does not help to find the best way?

 

I guess you think something totally different, but I really would like to know what you think.

[kfay]

Roland v. The World

May you explain this comment?

 

Do you think that the world like 2 NT to show both majors and disagree with my view that this is inferior?

 

Do you think that FES players are not part of your world?

 

Or do you think that the world like just to state their opinion instead of trying to explain what they think?

 

Or do you think that the world is too stupid too see that there are pros and cons in many approachs to the game and that a black/white thinking does not help to find the best way?

 

I guess you think something totally different, but I really would like to know what you think.

I just think that everyone else bids 2C with xxxx xxxx xxxx x and would not think TWICE about it.

[P_Marlowe]

Roland v. The World

May you explain this comment?

 

Do you think that the world like 2 NT to show both majors and disagree with my view that this is inferior?

 

Do you think that FES players are not part of your world?

 

Or do you think that the world like just to state their opinion instead of trying to explain what they think?

 

Or do you think that the world is too stupid too see that there are pros and cons in many approachs to the game and that a black/white thinking does not help to find the best way?

 

I guess you think something totally different, but I really would like to know what you think.

I just think that everyone else bids 2C with xxxx xxxx xxxx x and would not think TWICE about it.

And that is a wrong assumption.

 

Because you may violate partnership agreements, and even if you get a good score on this board due to this action, the damage you may cause to partners

trust is not worth it.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[jdonn]

You have a partnership agreement not to bid stayman on 4441? LOL

[P_Marlowe]

You have a partnership agreement not to bid stayman on 4441? LOL

We used to, and we did not feel, that it did hurt.

 

For us Stayman did promise at least inv. values,

and if did not have inv. values, we could not use

stayman.

 

We switched, but this is due to the fact, that we

switched to a weak NT, and now it makes sense

to drop the req. of inv. strength for stayman.

 

The whole discussion overlooks one point:

4441 hands are rare, if I recall it the frequency is 1

or 3% at best, now there are 4 possible orderings,

i.e. we are currently speaking about hands which show

up less than 1% of the time.

And this excludes the analysis, that we also need to req.

hands with less than ? HCPö.

 

Now you may focus to work on your system so that

you improve your bidding on hands which come up

less than 1% of the time, but I have more urgent things

to clean up.

 

All in all the whole subject we are currently discussing is

highly overrated.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[1eyedjack]

I agree with kfay and jdonn - the frequency of landing in a 4-2 diamond fit is less than the frequency of missing a better fit by playing in 1N. On the other side of the coin, you are giving the opponents more opportunities to contest the auction. 1N is not yet doubled. Where you run to might be. On the third side of the coin, if they do end up doubling 1N and you run to 2C and redouble, you might have a better chance of finding your 4-3 fit or better, but also perhaps a higher chance of ending up doubled there than had you bid 2C initially. I might look at the vul, scoring method and position of dealer before making a decision, and then I expect I would bid 2C if I was playing any form of Stayman. Normally I don't but that is outside the parameters of the original question.

 

Playing Stayman (even including garbage) I have often wondered whether you would be better off using rebids higher than 2S, particularly to distinguish min v max openers. Sure you can get a level too high (or I should say an extra level too high) if opener is max and responder has the garbage hand, and you may get doubled when you might have bought it in 2 undoubled. But you gain by playing at the 2 level when opener would decline an invite, and you are also ahead of the game in slam investigation. Certainly if you absolutely guarantee a game try with the 2C response (per P Marlowe) then it would be absurd not to make use of all of the available rebids up to 3N.

 

Bottom line is I don't think that there is a lot in it, provided that you make maximum use of all of the available bids once you commit to a rebid structure that extends beyond 2S. Just playing 2N to show 4-4 in the majors does not strike me as making maximum use.

[Codo]

I just think that everyone else bids 2C with xxxx xxxx xxxx x and would not think TWICE about it.

If you think everybody in the world plays this way, your world is quite small.

 

I have no strong feelings about garbage stayman. When I played it, the ups and downs seem to level out and Jack summarized well, why.

 

Maybe a search in a database can find out whether garbage stayman is a long time winner.

[marcD]

Frankly, the main reason I play this method is that it is standard here. Do not think garbage stayman is a big winner in a strong NT context so I do not really miss it and knowing 2♣ shows at least invitational values does help in competitive auctions.

 

Another (small) benefit of bidding 2NT with both majors is that it allows to locate a spade fit more easily in slam auctions (which otherwise would probably start 1NT 2♣ 2♥ 3 or 4NT

 

Over 2NT most player play 3♣ and 4♣ as transfers for H and 3♦ and 4♦ as transfers for spades. Playing 3♥ and 3♠ as natural SI(instead of natural GI) makes sense but a downside is that the 3 level xfers are no longer SI .

 

to address the information leak issue some pairs play that 1NT 3♦ shows 4M333 , 3♥ 4spades, 3♠ 4♥ without slam ambitions

[shevek]

I see no advantages and it removes garbage stayman. What do you bid on:

xxxx

xxxx

xxxx

x

 

?

Hi Ron,

 

I pass and avoid the 4-2 fit after 2 Diamond opposite a typical 3325 hand.

 

Over 2♦ I bid 2♥ to show 4-4 or 4-5 & play the 7-card major fit

[peachy]

I just think that everyone else bids 2C with xxxx xxxx xxxx x and would not think TWICE about it.

If you think everybody in the world plays this way, your world is quite small.

 

I have no strong feelings about garbage stayman. When I played it, the ups and downs seem to level out and Jack summarized well, why.

 

Maybe a search in a database can find out whether garbage stayman is a long time winner.

For me, Garbage Stayman is a proven long-term winner (32 years is long term :P ). We play a partscore in our best fit instead of playing 1NT with no chance of making it.

[kaltstart]

First of all, thank you for the detailed replies. Since I often play with a French partner, the reason I asked just was to get a better understanding of the bidding sequence with which I´m not used to. And it´s difficult to get detailed informations about the system in English; most of it is in French, of course.

 

By the way, the variation of Garbage Stayman isn´t as well known in other countries as well, maybe. Once, I had 2 garbage stayman sequences in 5 boards, and the American opponents asked me to alert it afterwards. Besides, only about 2 other players bidded stayman according to the score sheet. Sure not representative, but...

[aguahombre]

"garbage stayman" or, "drop dead stayman"? I recall an article promoting a "garbage stayman" structure --advocating it be used on a lot of semi-balanced or balanced hands with 7 cards in the majors. I cannot imagine this being successful in the long run, at the expense of other systemic uses for stayman and its follow-ups. We have found long run success using "drop-dead", but almost always hold 5 diamonds when we use it, and always are very short in clubs.

[jdonn]

It wouldn't really matter if you didn't play it if 4441 was the only shape. But combining 4441, 3451, 4351, 4450, and sometimes 3460 or 4360 make it clearly worthwhile, and that's not even taking into account doing it with just the majors (and pulling 2♦) which is also a big winner (and 3415 which I have discussed before!)

[Finch]

I gave up 'garbage' or 'drop-dead' (or whatever) Stayman 10 years ago with one regular partner and 2 years ago with the other.

 

I don't miss it on the 3-suited hands at all.

I miss it slightly on the weak 5-4/5-5 major suited hands, but the advantages from the extra sequences we get seem to compensate.

 

(I don't play SEF either, so I can't tell you how the French manage these sequences)

[Tcyk]

Finding a spsde fit after 1N - 2♣ -2♥ is no problem unless there is a flaw in your system. Bidding 2NT to show 4-4 in the majors is a waste of bidding space and makes garbage Stayman impossible.

 

The solution is very simple and does allow 2C with a hand that does not have a 4-card major. If the response to Stayman is 2♦ or 2♥, 2♠ is an asking bid. It is forcing to game and opener tells more about his shape. I learned this as extended Stayman. I won't get into the details here but after 1NT - 2♣ - 2♥ - 2♠ (asking),

2NT shows 4 spades,

3♣ shows 4 hearts and 4 clubs or 3=4=3=3 shape,

3♦ shows 4 hearts and 4 diamonds,

3♥ shows 3=5=3=2 shape,

3♠ shows 3=5=2=3 shape and

3NT shows 2=5=3=3 shape.

 

The key to using this method is that transfers are made with weak or invitational strength hands, never with strength necessary to force to game. Yes this gives a lot of information to the opponents and can hurt you at times especially when playing MatchPoints. It also lets you find the proper contract and that is the goal of almost all bridge players.

[gnasher]

It also lets you find the proper contract and that is the goal of almost all bridge players.

Is it? I think the trend these days is towards short, uninformative auctions to the most likely game.