gwnn Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 I'm confused "Everybody" knows that auctions like 1m-1M-x1M-2m-x show the other major, at least 4 cards, "no exceptions allowed" Which is the lowest auction that a negative double does not systemically promise 4 card support in an unbid major? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill1157 Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 i don't think it promises the other major, because you might have a 6 card suit in the unbid minor and not enough to go 2/1. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromageGB Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 i don't think it promises the other major, because you might have a 6 card suit in the unbid minor and not enough to go 2/1. Bill I don't think you can have it both ways. If you say you will double if you have some values and 4 cards in the other major, but also do it with a weak hand and long other suit, what do you do when opener with 4 cards in the major and a good hand jumps to game? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromageGB Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 If your agreement is that it shows 4 cards in the unbid major, then it applies to the level you agree that negative doubles apply up to. In my partnerships this is only up to the 2 level. Above that, doubles are "values", no guarantee of shape other than "balanced", and are often passed for penalty. A distributional opener will of course bid on. I have seen many cards saying negative doubles up to 4♠, but it seems pointless to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 Gwnn you're looking at this wrong. It shows 4 in the other major (for example), 98% of the time on the 1 level, 92% of the time on the 2 level, 80% of the time on the 3 level, 65% of the time on the 4 level, or something like that. The function has a descending slope of some kind, it isn't uniform to a point followed by a steep drop off. All you are really asking is at what arbitrary percentage point "no exceptions allowed (except when they are)" becomes "exceptions sometimes allowed" which is not all that meaningful of a question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jlall Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 1D-(2C) frequently only has 1 unbid major. In fact I had 3-3 in the majors and did that yesterday heh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 I like Josh's answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 very helpful, useful thread, thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 Running up your post total for no reason Mike? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matmat Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 The function has a descending slope of some kind, it isn't uniform to a point followed by a steep drop off. is it differentiable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vuroth Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 The function has a descending slope of some kind, it isn't uniform to a point followed by a steep drop off. is it differentiable? lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 Running up your post total for no reason Mike? I was trying to say thankyou to the posters, esp. Jdonn, for a very helpful thread...please reset my posts to zero ty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 I'm confused "Everybody" knows that auctions like 1m-1M-x snipped show the other major, at least 4 cards, "no exceptions allowed"snipped No! Everyone doesn't. You would no doubt be aware that there have been many discussions on this site where many people have said they play 1m (1H) x as categorically denying 4+S. The rationale being that if you have a S suit, why not bid it? 1D (2C) x may not even have a hand with one 4 card M, though this is rare of course. By the way, I have frequnlty seen expert cards with -ve doubles through 7H. 4S is certainly the norm and, no Fromage, I don't find it pointless at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcphee Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 So many players seemed to have some restricted vision with regard to a neg dble. Many feel it should show 4 cards in the other major, and 1C 1D dble to be 4-4 majors. I find this approach far too restrictive. The facts of the matter are when your rho over-calls you want to take the opportunity to inform partner you have a reason to compete, dble is most often the only way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdanno Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 Gwnn you're looking at this wrong. It shows 4 in the other major (for example), 98% of the time on the 1 level, 92% of the time on the 2 level, 80% of the time on the 3 level, 65% of the time on the 4 level, or something like that. The function has a descending slope of some kind, it isn't uniform to a point followed by a steep drop off. I think there is a jump at the 3-level though. Over 1D-(3C) you won't have to double without a 4-card major very often, since when you have a suit, you can bid it. Over 1D-(3S), you cannot bid your club suit unless you are willing to bypass 3NT. So up to 3m, I would say the negative double "shows" at least one unbid 4-card major. From 3M on, there are really no guarantees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill1157 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 I guess you could look at it like the take-out X. It usually shows 4 cards in the other major, but not always. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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