Evaluate this deal

[Fluffy]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=skj743hj932daq7c6]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

You hold this at south and the bidding goes:

 

N: p-(1♠)-p-2♣

N: 2♥-3♦-??

[hrothgar]

I'm bidding 4H. (Bidding what I think we can make)

Partner's 2H bid probably assumed that I have a few hearts and some scattered values, but he can't be expecting this...

 

I'm happy to penalty double 4S or 5D.

[luis]

3sp, slam try in hearts.

[mr1303]

If I understand the bidding correctly, partner is a passed hand, so I think game is about the limit of the hand. Hence I'll bid it now. If they attempt anything higher, the X card awaits for them

[inquiry]

You have a great hand for this auction. It would help, perhaps, to know partner's tendencies as it relates to weak two's first seat not-vul. Why? Because partner freely bid a sandwich 2♥ after passing. Got to think partner doesn't have seven ♥'s, and is unlikely to risk this bid with only 5. So partner has six.

 

But time to evaluate. We will be able to make game in ♥ is clear. Slam is not totally out of the question, but partner has to have the magic hand with all missing relevant cards onside (♠x ♥AQxxxx ♦xx ♣Axxx (yes I would open that hand)...

 

To put this in ZAR point perspective (yes you are all sick of those, but this is for beginners who count 11 hcp versus a pass hand and so don't think of game), in support of ♥ South has 11 hcp, 3 control pts, 13 distributional points, 1 pt for ♥J, 2 pts for ♣stiff + 4th ♥, 1pt for AQ behind ♦bidder, and 1pt for ♠K behind ♠ bidder. Further good news, if partner needs ♣ or ♥ honor well placed, they will likely be right too. This adds up to a very nice 33 ZAR points. It is very difficult to believe that partenr freely bidding 2♥ would not be close to an opening hand, so give him a conservative 22 (a king less than opening). 22+32 = 54, two more points than need by ZAR count for game.

 

Since what ever hcp your partner has seem to be well place, just as your does, the only question is if you want to stop off to double them. I guess I would just bid game and let it go at that, but if they bid over 4♥ they will regret it.

[Free]

I wonder where all these points are coming from. East has an opening and a rebid of a new suit at 3-level, West has a 2/1, and I have 11 HCP. That doesn't leave much HCP for my p imo.

P didn't open a weak two, and like Ben I think he has a 6 card ♥. So what about his hand? Has to be slightly weaker than a normal weak-2 imo. If he somehow would have enough values for a weak-2, then he'll probably have a 3 card ♠ and decided not to open. That leaves a ♠ void in west, and I don't think we'll make 4♥ in that case.

 

I bid 3♥, to make and not to go down in 4... If they somehow manage to bid 4♠ or 5♦ a Dbl is appropriate.

[luis]

I wonder where all these points are coming from. East has an opening and a rebid of a new suit at 3-level, West has a 2/1, and I have 11 HCP. That doesn't leave much HCP for my p imo.

P didn't open a weak two, and like Ben I think he has a 6 card ♥. So what about his hand? Has to be slightly weaker than a normal weak-2 imo. If he somehow would have enough values for a weak-2, then he'll probably have a 3 card ♠ and decided not to open. That leaves a ♠ void in west, and I don't think we'll make 4♥ in that case.

 

I bid 3♥, to make and not to go down in 4... If they somehow manage to bid 4♠ or 5♦ a Dbl is appropriate.

I respect your judgement Free but ... are you playing with a psycho?

Unless they didn't say something about substances consumed by our pd how can we imagine he is bidding 2h in sandwich on nothing ? :-)

 

I think pd has two aces and that's why he didn't open 2h, probably something like

A, Axxxxx, xx, xxxx

[inquiry]

Free,,,

 

If 4♥ is not rolling home, I think I want a new partner.... it has to be cold, or at least barring some really strange distrubutions, have a wonderful play.

 

ben

[Flame]

I Bid 3sp but this isnt a slam try, i am just bidding to game but showing i got diffensive value, 4h will not create a forcing pass later, and 3sp will.

[Flame]

I'm happy to penalty double 4S or 5D.

And this is the resson you shouldnt bid 4h, and choose 3sp instead.

[hrothgar]

I Bid 3sp but this isnt a slam try, i am just bidding to game but showing i got diffensive value, 4h will not create a forcing pass later, and 3sp will.

I'm not worried about creating a forcing pass.

 

I want to put the opponents under the maximum amount of pressure.

 

I want the opponents to have to make their next decision not knowing whether I have values or whether I am preempting.

[Free]

Free,,,

 

If 4♥ is not rolling home, I think I want a new partner.... it has to be cold, or at least barring some really strange distrubutions, have a wonderful play.

 

ben

Ben, I would turn that around actually, if 4♥ IS cold, then I would want a new partner, unless he had a VERY good reason to pass, but still. If he's strong enough for 4♥ together with my hand, I'm not used to hear a pass...

 

I think it doesn't make because of ♠ ruffs in West, but I can be wrong ofcourse

[Flame]

I Bid 3sp but this isnt a slam try, i am just bidding to game but showing i got diffensive value, 4h will not create a forcing pass later, and 3sp will.

I'm not worried about creating a forcing pass.

 

I want to put the opponents under the maximum amount of pressure.

 

I want the opponents to have to make their next decision not knowing whether I have values or whether I am preempting.

Well I think your approch is different then the one most member of the furum use , i like it, is there a book that support this approach of hiding more then showing ?

[hrothgar]

Well I think your approch is different then the one most member of the furum use , i like it, is there a book that support this approach of hiding more then showing ?

I'm don't know of any books that explictly deal with the subject, however, this logic is at the core of a number of bidding approaches. Take a look at and of the work that the Scanians are doing: All of their strucutres are designed to allow for auctions that minimize the transfer of information.

 

In a similar fashion, consider a simple auction like 1M - 2M playing MOSCITO.

 

The 1M opening in MOSCITO 4+ cards in the corresponding major, and coule have a longer minor. The raise to 2M promises precisely 3 card support. Ceteris paribus, our side will have 7 card fit about 48% of the time and an 8+ card fit 52% of the time.

 

Suppose that the auction starts

 

(1M) - P - (2M) - P

(P) - ???

 

If we have an 8+ card fit, its imperative to balance. No-one ever gets rich defending an 8+ card fit at the 2 level. In contrast, if we only have a 7 card fit, forcing you side to the 3 level breaks the Law. Worse yet, WE know the length of the trump fit and our combined strength with fair amount of precision. You're completely in the dark.

[tysen2k]

Partner could have 2 aces like Luis suggested (if that's your style not to open a weak 2). He could also be something like 6-5 in hearts and a minor. Some people prefer not to open these hands and come in later. Slam might be possible, but I'm not going to try for it.

 

I bid 4♥ and put as much pressure on the opponents as possible. From their point of view it might sound like a sacrifice and they might double.

[luis]

Flame:

 

I think that if you want to transmit the message "I want to bid 4h pd but please don't bid 5h" you should bid 3NT and not 3s. But maybe this is too subtle.

[whereagles]

The way things are going, looks like opponents have their bids and partner is bidding for the lead. I don't believe pard has two aces because that would require opps to be very, very minimum for their bidding, as in 11-10 or 12-9.

 

I see pard with something like x KQTxx xx xxxxx, but then again, this problem depends a lot on what kind of weak 2 bids your side plays and your partner... I would probably bid 4♥ anyway, and hope for the best (but won't double their contract).

[Fluffy]

Bad news, its first time you are playing with that partner, nothing agreed except opening 2♥ would be weak.

 

now it comes your next evaluation problem:

 

On anything at 3 level LHO bids 4♣-pass-pass, your turn.

 

If you had bid 4♥ LHO bids 5♣-pass-pass, your turn.

[Free]

Bad news, its first time you are playing with that partner, nothing agreed except opening 2♥ would be weak.

 

now it comes your next evaluation problem:

 

On anything at 3 level LHO bids 4♣-pass-pass, your turn.

 

If you had bid 4♥ LHO bids 5♣-pass-pass, your turn.

1) On anything at 3 level LHO bids 4♣-pass-pass, your turn.

 

Pass, what else? I never defend against 4m if I think we can't make our contract and they might make one more (which becomes a game)... If you bid 4♥ now, you might as well have bid 4♥ right away :blink:

 

2) If you had bid 4♥ LHO bids 5♣-pass-pass, your turn.

 

Pass, I'd only Double 4♠ and 5♦. Perhaps I'm too careful with my Dbl's sometimes, but this seems to be a freak hand, everything is possible.

 

 

Seems like I'd end up in 4♣ for opps. Will only be bad if we have game, but as I mentioned before I don't think we'll make it. However, sometimes I'm completely wrong :P

[inquiry]

I wouild not bid at the thre three level, so question 1 is not possible for me, I would double 5♣'s.

 

Ben

[the hog]

I am afraid these questions are impossible to answer as we really need to know the style of weak 2 openings played by partner. As this partner is a first timer, who knows why he passed in the first place and is bidding now. This is one reason I hate this sort of Bridge. It reduces this to a straight out guessing game. Some possibilities, I guess:

 

Luis:

"think pd has two aces and that's why he didn't open 2h, probably something like

A, Axxxxx, xx, xxxx "

Fair comment. I'd open a weak 2 but many would not.

 

He has another 4 card suit - I guess some players won't open with a 2 suiter. Well it can't be S.

 

Whereagles:

"I see pard with something like x KQTxx xx xxxxx,"

 

Well then partner is a total nutter, and thank heavens I won't have to play with him again.

 

Rgardless, I am bidding 4H, and I am doubling 5C

 

Ron

[whereagles]

Why is it a problem to overcall 2♥ on x KQTxx xx xxxxx? I mean.. pard, being short in clubs, rates to have a few hearts. You're not vulnerable either, so why not a bid for the lead?.. I agree it's risky, but, unless pard comes up with a 5152 shape, it's a calculated risk. Besides, I consider it much more risky to overcall 2♥ on A Axxxxx xx xxxx than on the first hand :P

[Free]

Whereagles,

 

it's nuts to bid with x-KQTxx-xx-xxxxx because you lack trump control! Ruffing ♣ shouldn't be possible against good defense, because you'll lose all your trumps in dummy before you have a chance to ruff any ♣s, and you can't go back to your hand (yet, you have to lose a ♠ first). Give yourself ♥A and it's slightly better, but still a big risk.

[GijsH]

For this bidding I expect partner to have:

 

♠Ax ♥109xxxx ♦xx ♣Axx

 

so 2 aces but a very weak ♥suit. With ♥Axxxxx he should open 2♥, I think it is nonsense that a hand is too weak to open and too strong for a weak-2.

So I bid 3♥ now (as 4♥ does not make: good opponents with draw trumps first) and I will pas when LHO bids 4♣.

I will venture a double on 5♣ and pray partner doesn't lead a ♥, because then declarer will discard his ♠/♦ losers on dummy's high ♥s!

[whereagles]

it's nuts to bid with x-KQTxx-xx-xxxxx because you lack trump control!  Ruffing ♣ shouldn't be possible against good defense, because you'll lose all your trumps in dummy before you have a chance to ruff any ♣s, and you can't go back to your hand (yet, you have to lose a ♠ first).  Give yourself ♥A and it's slightly better, but still a big risk.

With x KQTxx xx xxxxx I might go down for a number, but at least they'll have a slam. With the "safer" A Axxxxx xx xxxx, I'm still going down for a number, but this time they might not even have a game on..

 

Not that this matters much.. in these kind of problems, it always turns out pard has an unsuitable hand for the overcall.