Tournament subs

[anssibragge]

Hello all again,

 

I was a couple months away from the board, mainly business and other stress.

 

I've been a sub for a tournament now the last 30mins, and missed already 5 bids to play. Mainly, bebause I've been reading some other websites and the popup asking to play has been left behind the other windows AND it has not produced any sound effect.

 

The players in the tournament "#438 Anything goes" have of course been quite dissappointed, as they were automatically blacklisted and kicked out by the organizers for not finding a sub. (Which, I think, is totally bullXXXX)

 

Anyway, I have checked the BBO window every 4.2 minutes and every once in a while found an outdated invitation waiting for me.

 

This doesn't really work this way, right? If I'm doing a favor for others, I should be able to read the local newspaper at the same time while being ready to sub a tournament.

 

abe

[anssibragge]

Another tip: People who are willing to sub for a tournament, should somehow be able to see how many / who are already subs for the tournament.

 

Example: there are 3 tournaments starting at the same time. Some kind people want to sub for *a* tournament. But then by some chance they all sub for the same tournament, leaving the 2 others emptyhanded..

 

abe

[csdenmark]

This doesn't really work this way, right? If I'm doing a favor for others, I should be able to read the local newspaper at the same time while being ready to sub a tournament.

I completely agree with your statement. I think this problem need to be adressed else people will rightfully claim they can do nothing in the waiting time. For that waiting time and later sucking into tourney they are not welcome at tables in Main Club - so local newspaper - TV or other easy activities you can break without notice are excellent ways to spend the waiting time.

[mpefritz]

I asked about this several months ago. I thought Fred or Uday was going to associate an INVITE pop-up with a private message chat sound or one of the already commonly active sound parameters.

 

Any updates on this?

 

fritz

[square]

It would also be helpful to know how many boards are left to play. This would then give you some idea of the time you were committing yourself to.

[Willem]

... Mainly, bebause I've been reading some other websites and the popup asking to play has been left behind the other windows AND it has not produced any sound effect....

I believe a sound alarm is a great idea.

 

square Posted on May 27 2004, 10:17 AM

  It would also be helpful to know how many boards are left to play. This would then give you some idea of the time you were committing yourself to.

As a sub I would like to help a pair and the director by playing 1 or 2 hands, hoping the original player will and can return. In the current settings the disconnected player can't return, and the sub has to play till the end of the tournament. I don't think that's a good idea.

[Frosty]

Willem -

 

I believe you are the exception to the rule as regards your philosophy about subbing until the removed player returns. The idea of having a sub just until a player can return has several problems. First of all, the player who has been replaced is often suffering from a bad connection or has completely disconnected. It is death to the pace of the tournament to keep putting a player back in when he/she is experiencing bad connections. This negatively impacts everyone who is playing In some cases, the player has been removed for disciplinary reasons and will not be permitted to return. Finally, most subs want to stay and play, which means that they would not be willing to interrupt what they are doing to be popped in and out of a tournament in brief snippets of time. If we adopted this approach, there would be a significant reduction in the number of players signing up to sub.

 

I've worked in an online bridge setting where there were one or two roving subs assigned to work a tourney to fill the role you are suggesting. They would remain with the tourney for the duration to fill in temporarily for players who could/would return to claim their seats. It was an administrative nightmare to keep these positions staffed because it really involved the potential for a lot of sitting around doing nothing and required a great deal of skill to be prepared to fill in for any level of skill or bidding system. Given that any TD can go thru as few as a couple or as many as a dozen or more subs in a single event, it isn't even a practical option for BBO.

 

As a player who often subs, I agree that its a pain to have to sit waiting/watching for silent a screen pop-up to sub, especially since we are now not allowed to be playing casual hands. I think this has already reduced our sub pool and I've noticed that players who used to sign up to sub will now send me a private message instead of signing up to sub. This counteracts the change to block players from playing in the Main Bridge area while they are waiting to play and it means that - once again - there is more work for the TD to do to manage subs, but if that is the only way I can get subs when I need them, so be it. The change to block players who were waiting to play in a tournament was a popular change amongst those who wanted to play "serious" casual bridge in the Main Room, but it precipitates some impediments otherwise.

 

I also think that a good change for calling subs would be for the call to expire when it hasn't been answered within 15 seconds. AND - that person should be moved to the bottom of the sub list so that they don't continue to block timely access to the subs who might actually BE available. Frankly, as a TD I never wait longer than 10 seconds to reissue a call if there is no response from the first one. And I often get responses long after the tournament is over from players who have been called to sub who are just then answering the request. It is impractical for everyone involved for a sub call to hang out there indefinitely.

 

Frosty :P

[anssibragge]

BTW, this happened me again rigth 2 mins ago.

 

I'm subbed to 2 tournaments at the moment and I was browsing thru this forum. I'm sure you'd all like me rather playing in the BBO than bleeding my heart out on the screen... :blink:

 

abe

[Trpltrbl]

Good suggestion.

 

Mike :blink:

[csdenmark]

I've worked in an online bridge setting where there were one or two roving subs assigned to work a tourney to fill the role you are suggesting.   They would remain with the tourney for the duration to fill in temporarily for players who could/would return to claim their seats.   It was an administrative nightmare to keep these positions staffed because it really involved the potential for a lot of sitting around doing nothing and required a great deal of skill to be prepared to fill in for any level of skill or bidding system.    Given that any TD can go thru as few as a couple or as many as a dozen or more subs in a single event, it isn't even a practical option for BBO. 

 

Really sure the idea of a corps of substitutters is so bad? Assigned not for one single tourney but for all. Sound good and I think it will be worth giving deeper thoughts.

 

Sure such a task will not be for beginners. As you mention basic skills for several systems will be needed.

 

I think a topic to deal with in your TD-Forum.

[anssibragge]

BTW, another possibility to enhance the play would be the possibility for the table to change sides to become the declarer if the declarer has been found link dead.

 

abe

[lucky_dom]

To do this you'd have to not allow the dummy to see all the hands in a tournament game.

[1eyedjack]

The players in the tournament "#438 Anything goes" have of course been quite dissappointed, as they were automatically blacklisted and kicked out by the organizers for not finding a sub. (Which, I think, is totally bullXXXX)

Whilst I agree with the general post (requesting a sound alarm or an "always on top" invitation dialog box) I can understand that in the existing environment, if no subs accept an invitation to play then the host may have no choice but to kick them off the remaining tourney. I do not know about that, having no experience of hosting, BUT: are you sure they were blacklisted? That seems rather harsh.

[anssibragge]

It was in the tournament rules that they, who can't get themselves a sub, get blacklisted. Very harsh to write such in the rules.

 

abe

[dogsbreath]

Hi .. As someone who frequntly subs I have noticed that occassionally a TD will continue issuing pleas for subs after I , and presumably others, have registered in response to an earlier call. I realise that TD attempts to match subs to seated player .. would be pointless to sub me with a player whose system I dont mention on my profile ... but what's going on in this case?? is the TD just trying to hoard all available subs? :rolleyes:

I also strongly commend the suggestion above regarding letting the sub know how many boards still to be played .. may make it easier to sub if you are not commiting for too long a period.

(this is NOT a complaint about TD's ..comment only :) )

 

Rgds Dog

 

furnulum pani nolo

[spwdo]

It was in the tournament rules that they, who can't get themselves a sub, get blacklisted. Very harsh to write such in the rules.

 

abe

hi,

 

i got blacklisted this way, made request to undo it, got a "ok, u are able to play again, apoligies, my mistake " still im blacklisted .

 

What happend now, i played with someone who had to reboot , 4 minutes left, generally someone can expect partner will return in short time. i waited couple minutes for her to return, Td was waching when round changed with one minute on round clock, can happen offcourse , didnt expect it, wanted to give partner as long as possible given new policy on barring players.

 

So i end up been black in someones tourney , td came to laugh at me in my own tourney with a typo from me, i ask if td was laugfing with me, she was chocked by my question,wich i think will have me blacklisted for life for that td.

 

I send Td a mail wich probaly will cause td to ask for reinstate capital punischment in my regions given prevuios "punischments"on minor things

 

Regards

 

Marc

[RayUK]

spwdo - you certainly are not blacklisted for "Anything Goes" and both the TDs have better things to do anyway than chase people to other tourneys.

 

Perhaps you will be kind enough to set the record straight.

[RayUK]

Back to the original discussion.

 

Baa-Lamb and myself are the TDs for this regular tourney.

 

This tournament is ALWAYS set up with the words "YOU MUST READ THE RULES!!" repeated several times in the Tournament description. If people do not bother reading the rules and refuse to accept them then they are, as a general rules, blacklisted and barred from entering future "Anything Goes" - this is the perogative of the TD of any tourney to bar those people that disrupt the general flow of an event.

 

General guide lines we use for blacklisting people are:

 

1: Refusing to get a substitute when their partner disappears.

 

People are not blacklisted if no substitutes are available - thats plainly silly and has never been done. Players are always requested to get a substitute when their partner is absent. After the second such request is made and substitutes are available, they are set as "Enemy" to prevent them entering in the future. If after another couple of minutes (if sufficient time allows) we do not place a substitute opposite them - we substitute the player that is ignoring our requests and this new player will then get their own compatible partner.

 

As this is a timed survivor event, sometimes it isnt done this way as we dont want to lose tables - the main reason why we are so hot on players acting promptly when asked to get a sub. If the round ends with a player absent then the software excludes the pair with a player missing and also excludes another pair (through no fault of their own) to keep the tourney to full tables.

 

2: We also blacklist players about whom we receive complaints about slow play, refusing to accept valid claims, playing out the hand for an average etc.

 

Nothing is more annoying than players being deprived of a good score by unfair means.

 

Players about whom a complaint is received get warned. If a further subsequent complaint is made later by different opposition then they are blacklisted.

 

Basically it comes down to this.

 

If you play unfairly or refuse to abide by the rules, you will be barred from future "Anything Goes" tourneys.

 

If you don't like the rules then there is a simple answer - don't enter.

[xx1943]

If you don't like the rules then there is a simple answer - don't enter.

RayUK, you hit exactly the point. It is strongly requested to educate people to read the tournament rules. :rolleyes:

 

Different TD have different objektives with their tourney and every player should agree with the TD or enter another tourney.

 

Al

[baa-lamb]

I appreciate your position - you register as a sub and would like a "always

on top" window to tell you when you are required. (Am I right?)

This appears to be a software constraint and I do feel that after offering

to act maybe you should be readily available. I agree with the suggestions made by others that it would be good for subs to be able to see the state of the tournament - how many rounds to go etc.

 

I did take exception to your use of expletive in your comment on the actions of "Anything Goes" TDs, maybe it would help you understand the reasons behind the rules that we make.

 

Please understand that many offer to sub and when asked various actions are

reported.

Playing elsewhere

Kibitzing at table ##

Not online

Refused

 

As a sub you will be unaware that there are nearly always a number of subs

enrolled and if the TD attempts to sub for a missing player it often happens

that the TD will "block ask" so that the first available on the list gets

invited.

 

As a sub you will also be unaware that it is often a matter of urgency to

save the losing of a full table that a vacant seat be filled before the end

of the round. There is nothing more disappointing for a TD than to invite a

sub who accepts 30 secs before round end - sits - realises that the systems

played are incompatible, and leaves creating an incomplete table when there

is no time to correct. Three keen players are now excused from the event.

 

Uday has developed software that allows the partner of a missing player to

choose the sub he would like to invite. This is a magnificent addition to

the already excellent facility offered to players and as TDs RayUK and I are

encouraging players to learn how to do it - and to take advantage of the

facility offered.

 

RayUK and I DO blacken the names of players who refuse to call for their own

subs. This is not bullXXXX . We DO NOT black players that fail to get a sub

of course. We check there are subs available, and often a player will tell

us, when they have been instructed to choose a sub, that they WILL NOT call

a sub - they are waiting for their partner to return. This is not

acceptable - The rules of our "Anything Goes" events need to be read, if

only because we have regulated out the need to alert, say quite clearly that

players MUST call their own subs. Players are asked to read the rules before entering - invited to ask questions before the off - and reminded during the first round. Players who do not comply with the instructions of the TD may have action taken against them. What more do you expect?

 

I hope this helps you with your unrest, and look forward to seeing you in

our events again soon :rolleyes:

 

baa-lamb

[spwdo]

spwdo - you certainly are not blacklisted for "Anything Goes" and both the TDs have better things to do anyway than chase people to other tourneys.

 

Perhaps you will be kind enough to set the record straight.

hi

 

he he.

 

Isnt your tourney♥, cant/wont use names here. Was/is somebody else.

 

Regards

 

 

Marc

[Gerardo]

Well, I'm glad I asked you to be blacklisted, wouldn't play in your tourneys.

 

Think I prefer tourneys with TDs, which you are NOT. You are PLAYERS.

 

You do absolutely NOTHING a TD should do, except having a (misleading) name. Name ANY action proper of a TD you do, please.

 

Put a "PLAYING TDs" in description. That means: "people listed as director in this tourney are useless in that function, so don't count on this tourney to have a TD"

[inquiry]

Open letter to BBO Community

 

Re: RayUK and BBA-lamb's, Anything goes tourneys.

 

For all practical purposes these are tournment director-less events, despite having two "directors". This is clearly stated in the condition of contest. There are no score adjustments, no penalties for failure to alert, no help if your partner gets disconnected.

 

It would be better if, as Gerardo said, the tournment stated that there was no director. In fact, maybe instead of "anything goes", it should be called "DIRECTORLESS TOURNEMENT - NO ADJUSTMENTS" as a name. Everytime I one of these things are held, and I am online I get messages from irrate participants, telling me that either the director will not correct some injustice done to them (no alert, mis-claim, intentional slow play) or will not sub their partner for them. And yes, that they themselves got blacklisted for not subbing out their favorite partner when he/she got disconnected.

 

The first time this happened, I had a small run in with Baa-lamb, I will not go into the details, but I was as much at fault as baa was. Now, I have no sympathy for anyone stuck in their event without realize how "odd" it is compared to other tournments. Because they clearly state their conditions. I would wonder why anyone would want to play in such an event, but that is just me (no TD is probalby ok, but announcing failure to alert not a probllem seems to violate the rules of bridge, and teh general alert rules on BBO).

 

So let us all take a lesson from this situation, and read the condition of contest from now on.

 

Ben

[1eyedjack]

announcing failure to alert not a probllem seems to violate the rules of bridge, and teh general alert rules on BBO

I don't think that this is strictly correct.

 

I have searched through the entire laws of duplicate, both US and UK versions, for instances of the character string "alert". The word crops up regularly but in no instance do the laws stipulate a requirement to alert. They do stipulate a require to explain on enquiry, but not to alert itself.

 

There is a clue in Law 21B1, which requires that

failure to alert promptly to a conventional call or special understanding, where such alert is required by the sponsoring organization, is deemed misinformation

There is an implication in this wording that in the absence of a requirement by the sponsoring organisation, there is no requirement. As far as I can tell the entire body of legislation requiring alerts is delegated to the sponsoring organisation by Laws 80E and 80F. I can see nothing in a proscription of alerts that is in contradiction of the Laws (Law 80F) and so a proscription is legal per se.

 

The question then arises, whether the tournament host has the authority within the terms and conditions of a particular tourney to override the alerting regulations set out in the general site rules in BBO. I have not bothered to research this but I would expect the TD/host to have that authority. I would certainly wish them to have that authority, although I personally would avoid a tourney that contained this particular proscription.

[1eyedjack]

RayUK and I DO blacken the names of players who refuse to call for their own subs. This is not bullXXXX . We DO NOT black players that fail to get a sub of course. We check there are subs available, and often a player will tell us, when they have been instructed to choose a sub, that they WILL NOT call

a sub - they are waiting for their partner to return. This is not

acceptable

I sympathise with this view. The only problem then is distinguishing between those who do send out invitations to subs, which are then ignored, from those who do not invite. Is the TD/Host made aware of this distinction by the software?

 

I am also concerned that the "blacklisting" might migrate across tourneys, to one where the particular cause of the blacking might not be an issue in the other tourney. TDs may assist with a variety of tourneys with a variety of particular tourney regs, but take their blacklists with them.

 

It would be a sad day if I find myself considering playing in a tourney, finding the conditions (which I have read) not entirely to my liking but broadly acceptable, do my best to abide by them then only to find myself blacklisted from a wider variety of tourneys. If I am confident that the blacklisting will be narrowly constrained then I might take the risk. Otherwise I would probably not take the risk of playing at all.