Quick but maybe tricky one?

[jdonn]

My very good partner and I disagreed when this came up. I then asked two good players and they each agreed with one of us. 2/1, no special agreements.

 

1♠ 2♥

2♠ 2NT

3♣ 3♠

4♥

 

What does the 4♥ bid mean, approximately? (Or specifically?)

[aguahombre]

AQXXX QX X Kxxxx. Choose anything but notrump or diamonds?

[the hog]

This is what I would say

2S = catch all rebid, 5S only

2NT = waiting

3C = natural, 4+

3S = Hx in S, bit wary about NT

4H = Hx in H, choose a contract;

[gnasher]

Choice of games with ♥Hx, eg AQxxx Kx xx KQ10x. A slam try in spades has to bid 4♦.

 

I'm assuming that over 3♣, 3♦ would have shown diamond concentration rather than being an FSF-like stopper-ask.

[paulg]

Choice of games with ♥Hx, eg AQxxx Kx xx KQ10x.  A slam try in spades has to bid 4♦.

 

I'm assuming that over 3♣, 3♦ would have shown diamond concentration rather than being an FSF-like stopper-ask.

I agree, although gnasher's proposed hand looks like a maximum for this auction as it's very close to an immediate 3♣ with the fitting heart honour.

 

Slam tries would cue bid a minor (probably 4♣).

 

Paul

[Fluffy]

4♥ looks pretty natural, I think even 5224 is possible. My spades are bad, I think we will play better in hearts.

 

Do people like to rebid 2♠ or 3♣ with a strong 6-4?. I am not so sure, 3♣ looks most descriptive. But hides the 6th spade untill the bidding is very high.

[andy_h]

Definitely natural with Hx looking for the best strain. Game before slam.

[hanp]

Agree, with a strong hand and 6 spades you can bid 4D.

[kenrexford]

I really don't get all of the comments that 4♥ should be Hx and choice. It seems that in the long run 3♠ is best treated as having made that choice, as between two (possible) 5-2's.

 

I mean, spades can be 6-2 in this auction. If not, only 5-2, it seems default better to play in the 5-2 favoring the person who is most unbalanced, meaning Opener's major anyway. And, if 3♠ made the choice, you have more options for when Opener actually started with 6.

 

Based on that analysis, I would expect a hand like ♠AQJxx ♥Qx ♦xx ♣Axxx.

 

Now, it looks similar, except that (1) I expect the clubs to be controlled, first round given the advertised weakness (assuming this auction is weak), (2) no diamond control, even shortness, and (3) good spades, with (4) a heart card.

 

For the strict Hardy types, ♠AQJxxx ♥Qx ♦xx ♣AJx?

[gnasher]

I really don't get all of the comments that 4♥ should be Hx and choice. It seems that in the long run 3♠ is best treated as having made that choice, as between two (possible) 5-2's.

 

I mean, spades can be 6-2 in this auction. If not, only 5-2, it seems default better to play in the 5-2 favoring the person who is most unbalanced, meaning Opener's major anyway. And, if 3♠ made the choice, you have more options for when Opener actually started with 6.

Surely the possibility that opener has six spades argues against our methods excluding playing a 5-2 heart fit?

 

The more likely it is that opener has six spades, the more responder will tend to bid 3♠. Therefore, when opener has only five spades we should be more inclined to consider alternative strains, and our methods should reflect that.

[jdonn]

Since everyone is pretty much in agreement, it continues 4NT over 4♥. What is that one?

[Phil]

Since everyone is pretty much in agreement, it continues 4NT over 4♥. What is that one?

I think you can drive yourself nuts with auctions like this.

 

4♥ is certainly a choice of games. If we are playing the 5-2, let's play the one where we can take the diamond ruffs in the short hand instead of getting tapped.

 

4N? At the table I would take it as RKC for hearts, acknowledging that responder may correct to spades or NT later.

[kenrexford]

Well, now there's the problem with this fishing around BS.

 

Just to rant again. Responder is almost assuredly 2533 for his 2NT call. Opener also probably has either 5-6♠/4♣ or 6♠/3+♣. In either event, spades is so often the right contract, and knowing that hearts is the right strain is too strained, that spades should be focused, where 4NT is now clearly RKCB for spades, IMO.

 

If 4♥ was choice, then 4NT is causing questions to be asked. This is the problem. Presumably, however, 4NT should be RKCB for hearts if any of this makes sense.

 

But, if 4♥ is actually best as choice, I really don't buy the proposed hands. I only think 4♥ makes sense if Opener has poor spades.

 

In thinking this through some more, what reason would Opener has to not bid 3♥ over 2NT but now to bid 4♥ over 3♠ as choice? Obviously no one is comfortable about diamonds that much, but bid 3NT already. Or, live with spades.

 

I mean, how tight of an auction is this? Responder bids 2NT, expressing willingness to declare notrump. Opener pussy-foots a 3♣ call to describe his hand, but he has a doubleton heart and poor spades and is unwilling to show that doubleton immediately. Responder focuses a newly-emerged diamond concern and focuses a spade doubleton with 3♠. Opener choices back.

 

Just a bizarre overkill, IMO.

[jdonn]

Ken remember the thread title. Quick answers! But I do appreciate your rant about 4♥ as soon as I asked about 4NT.

[kenrexford]

All right.

 

If 4♥ is actually choice, then 4NT is RKCB for hearts, IMO.

 

If 4♥ is a cue, then 4NT is RKCB for spades, obviously.

 

If 4♥ is undiscussed, and a guess, then 4NT is quantitative but should be "answered" as 6KCB. Might as well get funky with it.

[cherdanno]

Responder is almost assuredly 2533 for his 2NT call.

Disagree.

[ArtK78]

I agree with the general sentiment that 4♥ was natural - choice of games.

 

Now, when responder continues with 4NT, it is clearly RKCB. If the parnership has it in its arsenal, it should be 6 key card RKCB for both majors. If not, it is RKCB for hearts.

[awm]

I'll go with 4♥ cuebid, confirming six spades, and 4NT RKC♠.

 

Then again, I do very much prefer to play 3♦ as a "fourth suit forcing bid" on this auction.

[mike777]

Quick answer:

 

2s for me shows 6 spades very very often. Almost never only 5 spade, minimum, catch all method.

2h=5h 100% game force.

2nt=natural, game force.\, deny 3 spades.

3c-club values...still looking for best game. may be advanced cuebid depending on how bidding develops.

3s=diamond worries, natural.

4h=cue, agree spades.

4nt=rkc for spades.

 

AKxxxxx...K....xxx....Ax

 

give responder?

 

xx....AQxxx....KQ....Kxxx

 

 

 

For those who do play and know the 2s as a catchall rebid style, I look forward to reading your posts.

[Free]

I'd say 3♠ is choice of games, so 4♥ is "lets play 4♥". If this is followed by 4NT, this should be Blacky for ♥.

[kenrexford]

Like AWM said (are we agreeing here? weird), with ambiguity, Responder bids 3♦. 3♠ resolved the ambiguity. Spades is the focus major.

[kfay]

I'll go with 4♥ cuebid, confirming six spades, and 4NT RKC♠.

 

Then again, I do very much prefer to play 3♦ as a "fourth suit forcing bid" on this auction.

I totally would have thought this to be the consensus answer. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

It seems to me that Partner is 2-5 in the majors. If I'm 5-2 it just seems better to sleep where I lay so I can distinguish between cuebids at the 4-level (making 4♥ a real cuebid in support of spades).

 

We've found a fit at the 3-level, why continue to search for a fit that might be only marginally better at the 4-level?

 

 

 

Anyway, that being said I could totally make a 180 here and believe that it's COG. I just would have assumed cuebid undiscussed.

[Fluffy]

We've found a fit at the 3-level, why continue to search for a fit that might be only marginally better at the 4-level?

♠Q7642

♥J10

 

This isn't so hard to imagine. Partner said he wanted to play in spades, but he only has 2 cards there he doens't know anything about our spots.

[kenrexford]

We've found a fit at the 3-level, why continue to search for a fit that might be only marginally better at the 4-level?

♠Q7642

♥J10

 

This isn't so hard to imagine. Partner said he wanted to play in spades, but he only has 2 cards there he doens't know anything about our spots.

If partner held good hearts, he could have bid 3♦. More likely that partner has THAT hand, majors reversed.

[Apollo81]

If I were opener I would bid 3NT on pretty much any minimum hand without six spades, so the 4♥ bid is either a 6-2-1-4 minimum or some sort of cuebid for spades. Since this ambiguity is present, I would bid 4♦ with slam try in spades if I were opener regardless of my diamond holding.

 

As responder with little slam interest and facing the 4♥ call with no discussion, I would never pass, since 4♠ will always be a reasonable contract and 4♥ might not be one.

 

As opener facing the 4NT call, I would respond to RKC in spades. Even if partner intended it as RKC for hearts, I bet he's just as interested in the ♠K as the ♥K.