8 balanced

[Fluffy]

QJ76

K1084

82

Q52

 

 

N-S Vulnerable

 

1NT-(2NT)-???

 

*2NT= Minors

 

 

 

For the follow ups, you might assume that LHO will bid 3♣ if avaible passed back to you, or that partner will bid 3♥ over your cue.

[kenrexford]

Not that this helps with the "do I bid?" question, but the "what do I bid?" question might be answered well with some agreement here.

 

My personal preference is to treat this auction somewhat as if partner had opened 2NT. Hence, 3♣ as Puppet Stayman, 3M as transfers. I then do the "quick cure" for the 5♠/4♥ hand with 3♠. Also Texas.

[Codo]

I would double to show points , hoping to double 3 diamond later for take out.

3 Club stayman would be nice with this hand, but I do not have this tool avaiable.

 

When 3 club comes back to me undoubled, partner had no take out X of clubs.

In this case, I chicken out and let them play.

With marginal HCPs (for this level) no sure fit and bad breaks I let them play.

[andy_h]

X for values. I play that the 2nd X is takeout so I would do that if they bid 3D.

[TimG]

I would double to show points , hoping to double 3 diamond later for take out.

3 Club stayman would be nice with this hand, but I do not have this tool avaiable.

 

When 3 club comes back to me undoubled, partner had no take out X of clubs.

In this case, I chicken out and let them play.

With marginal HCPs (for this level) no sure fit and bad breaks I let them play.

You seem to be suggesting that

 

1N-(2N)-DBL-3D

P-P-DBL

 

is takeout, and that

 

1N-(2N)-DBL-3C

DBL

 

is penalty. Shouldn't they both be takeout (or penalty)? As you suggest, it seems to me that you can penalize the opponents when opener has 4 clubs and responder 2 clubs, but with that split either can double 3C. If responder has 4 clubs and opener has 2, neither can double 3C.

 

As for the actual hand, I would have passed if 1N had been passed to me and I will do the same here. I like double to show at least invitational values and I think this hand is just shy of that.

[kfay]

I was thinking about this auction just the other day and I thought it would be pretty normal to play something like:

 

Dbl = values

3m = invitational or better in the corresponding major

3M = NF

 

Is Dbl forcing to some level? At the time I wasn't sure but since Andy mentioned it playing t/o doubles definitely makes sense and I'd love to do that if they bid 3♦. But this seems to require that we're in a forcing auction, which I am definitely not sure is something I'd like to create with this auction, this hand being case in point.

[aguahombre]

I was thinking about this auction just the other day and I thought it would be pretty normal to play something like:

 

Dbl = values

3m = limit or better in the corresponding major

3M = NF

 

Sort of like "unus. Vs. Unus." in a slightly different context than the 1M opening.

Nice.

 

However, I am not willing to have any t/o double scheme after the value-showing double. We either find out we have cards in their chosen minor and penalize, or we find out we don't and don't.

 

As TimG said, above -- we were close to not moving originally over 1NT by partner, so why should we have to play at the 3-level, now?

[P_Marlowe]

X, showing inv. strength and a bal. hand.

A X by partner of 3C would be penalty, the pass showes

no clear way to go, since I have Qxx in clubs I would

go with X, if 3C comes back.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe.

[Jlall]

3C stayman. Barring any agreements I guess you have to X.

[aguahombre]

3C stayman. Barring any agreements I guess you have to X.

3c stayman is workable, but perhaps with some other hand. 3C eliminates defending and forces us to the 3-level or higher with a questionable 8 count, two of which are probably not valuable for offense. On the other hand, double showing values and cooperative is awkward with only 2 of my 8 HCP known to be working for defense.

[Gerben42]

I play 3♣ as both majors, more ♥ and 3♦ the reverse. 3M is not forcing but just inv. Dbl then bidding 3M would be strong.

 

I would Dbl and then Dbl either minor for T/O.

[oxyde]

I would personnaly play as in other two-suiters auctions.

Best asumption in unexpected situation is to refer to sthg you know. That means you should work with a regular partner more on bidding style than very precise situations.

 

Depends on you agreements but I like :

- pass then double for penalties : no need to tell them what will happen (if I double LHO can pass to show equals length, so that RHO can better choose if longer in the higher suit)

- immediate double from myself is take-out

- first cue is to show a weak hand in last suit

- second cue is fit-showing

Good thing to know when we have values or not.

 

Here we have to adapt as partner showed nothing :

- I would still double for take-out, even with 54 in majors => my choice here

- I would bid 3!c as transfer to !h (expected weak)

- I would bid 3!d as transfer to !s (second transfer as no fit can be shown)

- I would bid a major as natural and forcing (unless partner is used to reverse !h<=>!s in situations like 1NT (3!d) ?)

 

But I agree playing Stayman/Texas might be the best here.

Except that you don't know if partner is strong when Texas : how about

1NT (2NT) 3!d (5!c)

with a balanced hand, immediate tricks and good fit ?

[Tcyk]

I am from the old school. After we open 1NT, doubles are for penalty. It is true that we hold 23 to 25 HCP but both hands are balanced. Even if we have an 8-card major suit fit, game in that suit may be difficult. With no major-suit fit, opener is either 4-4 in the minors or has a 5-card minor suit. We probably do have a major suit fit but we can expect unfriendly distribution in the suit.

 

What do I do?

 

I double for values. The double tells my partner that we have the majority of the points and that I don't have a suit I can bid at the 3-level. We both know that points don't tell the story when there are distributional hands at the table. The opponents could easily take nine or more tricks in a minor suit. Partner's double of 3C should show 4-4 in the minors. Double of 3D should show five diamonds or 4-4 in the minors. I will pass any subsequent call that comes back to me.

[Fluffy]

The problem with double is that it creates a force to partner if it goes: pass-pass- 3m-pass-pass

 

 

[hv=n=s98xhaqjxdkj10xcax&w=sakxhxxxxxdqxcxxx&e=s10xxhda9xxxckj10xx&s=sqj7xhk10xxdxxcqxx]399|300|[/hv]

 

On 3♣ partner leads ♣A + another club, declarer should go just 1 off, but he eventually went 2

 

4♥ is gonna score something between -100 and -500

 

 

I though my 8 HCP were very soft, with minors behind partner, and majors mostly behind me.

 

At the table partially because we had no clear agreements, I picked Pass and Pass, I was very happy with my result.

[aguahombre]

So, double, then pass --or double then double -- would have worked on this hand also if opener and you agree. That doesn't make your choice wrong, it just makes the cooperative doublers right, too -this time, anyway.

[TimG]

Let's go back to this situation:

 

1N-2N-DBL-3D

P-P-?

 

Shouldn't a double by responder here be penalty? Also, wouldn't opener's double have been penalty.

 

With 4423 shape and enough values to start with double, shouldn't responder now bid 3H? Opener's pass of 3D said he couldn't double 3D for penalty, we can't double 3D for penalty, so we should be taking out and can do that by bidding.

 

It seems to me that the double of 2N sets up a penalty hunt situation (similar to 1M-(2N)-DBL and 1M-(DBL)-RDBL) so that responder's next double shouldn't be takeout, it should be penalty.

[Fluffy]

I play te way you describe Tim, also for me, it creates a force for BOTH players, doubling then passing 3m is not an option.

 

 

However I know the best spannish pair used to play that these types of doubles and redoubles, created a force only at levels 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 and 7. But at the 3 level opponents were able to buy the contract in, and doubles were for take out.

[RichMor]

Don't know if I am old school or what, but I think this is a fairly common treatment when we open and the opps make an artificial 2-suited overcall:

 

1. With defensive values in both of the opps' suits, responder should Pass and then Double the run out.

 

2. With offensive values, responder should bid or raise. Use 'unusual vs unusual' if you wish.

 

3. With defensive values in one of the opps' suits, responder should Double. Then opener can Double the run out with defensive values, bid with extra offense, or Pass which is forcing. Responder can then Double or bid.

 

If there is no direct run out as in:

1NT - (2NT) - X - (Pass)

Pass - (3m) - ?

then responder (who made the initial Double) can Double the delayed run out with a good 3+ or Pass with a weaker holding. Opener now gets another chance to Double or bid.

 

This follows THE LAW pretty much. We Double them at the three level with 5 or more trumps and bid with fewer.