What does this double mean?

[shevek]

1♦  (no)  1NT  (No)

No  (X)

 

Does North have

♠Axxx  ♥Kxxx  ♦x  ♣Qxxx  ?

 

The older textbooks list this double as penalty. North would have

♠Ax  ♥Qxx  ♦KQTx  ♣Qxxx.

 

What is "standard" now?

[Jlall]

in my world north has a good hand with diamonds.

 

HOWEVER. Standard is t/o I think.

[andy_h]

I'm curious, does anyone have an agreement that it's a takeout of clubs?

[gnasher]

I play it as flawed takeout - typically a weak notrump type. These days, however, most people think that's a takeout double on the first round.

[jdonn]

This is one of the two auctions I'm too scared to ever perpetrate undiscussed since there are at least 2 different potential meanings and I never know how partner will interpret. The other is

 

2X P 3X P

P DBL

[rbforster]

I'm curious, does anyone have an agreement that it's a takeout of clubs?

This makes some sense. If you play X as takeout, isn't it essentially 4=4 majors? I mean if you're strong enough to compete over 1N, you would probably have overcalled a 5cM if you had one. And if you had 4423 or 4414 with similar values, you would have doubled the first time around. So the delayed double is looking more and more like 4432 or 4441, which is to say "takeout of clubs".

[rbforster]

Prior discussion of both direct and balancing doubles in the auction 1D-1N.

[Lobowolf]

Per Max Hardy, I believe it's penalty (strong with diamonds), and 2♣ is takeout of diamonds, giving up only the natural 2♣ bid in front of the guy who didn't introduce hearts or spades or raise diamonds.

[peachy]

If I had a takeout of diamonds, I would have shown that 1st round with the light shapely takeout doubles that everybody plays nowadays. The only hand I could NOT show first round is "cards + diamonds". The Double here is telling partner I have "that hand" and suggesting penalty. He should rarely pull the Dbl.

[xcurt]

The IMP odds on doubling 1NT are so favorable, too, that I really like the option that let's me try to nail them when it goes 1D on some random 11 and 1NT on some random 5 or 6, and now they're in the same pickle they would be in if we opened the weak NT and they made an ill-advised overcall.

[Lobowolf]

If I had a takeout of diamonds, I would have shown that 1st round with the light shapely takeout doubles that everybody plays nowadays. The only hand I could NOT show first round is "cards + diamonds". The Double here is telling partner I have "that hand" and suggesting penalty. He should rarely pull the Dbl.

That's kinda like saying you could have bid 1NT with cards plus diamonds. Well, yeah, if you're strong enough you can. Surely, though, there are hands that aren't strong enough to double 1♦ for takeout directly, but are strong enough to ask partner to bid any other suit at the 2-level after the auction has revealed that he has some values. I'm not saying it's the best way to play the double, but there have to be hands that meet the description, e.g. something like a 4-4-1-4 10-count.

[P_Marlowe]

We play it as t/o.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[skjaeran]

in my world north has a good hand with diamonds.

 

HOWEVER. Standard is t/o I think.

Agree with the first line.

[gnasher]

If I had a takeout of diamonds, I would have shown that 1st round with the light shapely takeout doubles that everybody plays nowadays.

"Shapeless" would be a better description of the modern takeout double, IMO.

[awm]

For me this is an opening-strength balancing hand with length/strength in diamonds. I agree with the basically penalty interpretation (the example hand of a 13-count with ♦KQTx is exactly what I'd expect) except that I've seen people claim that this is a "penalty double of diamonds" which is implicitly a lot stronger (i.e. like 18+) and a lot more serious diamond suit (like a hand that would make a power double and then overcall diamonds, except that diamonds were opened so you can't really do that). There was some discussion about these two versions of the "penalty double" in a previous thread; in my opinion the "true penalty double" is just too infrequent to be worth catering too.

 

The "balanced hand with good diamonds" double can be removed by partner to a five-card suit (with expectation of at least a 7-card fit) or left in by a partner with moderate values. It's more frequently left in, but it's not the "I have them beat in my own hand, bid at your own peril" kind of penalty double.

[peachy]

If I had a takeout of diamonds, I would have shown that 1st round with the light shapely takeout doubles that everybody plays nowadays.

"Shapeless" would be a better description of the modern takeout double, IMO.

If it is shapeless and not shapely, then I don't subscribe to it and apparently I also don't know what "modern shapely TO double" is.