Poky Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 ♠AKQT9xx♥Kx♦x♣Qxx 1♥ 1♠3♦ ?? 3♦ is invitational (around 15-16) with 5-5 1♥ 2♠ would have been 6♠ 9-11. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanoi5 Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 What do you mean invitational? Could I pass 3♦? Could my partner pass 3♥ by me? Could my partner pass 3♠ by me? Explain this a bit please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OleBerg Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 4♠ wtp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peachy Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 ♠AKQT9xx♥Kx♦x♣Qxx 1♥ 1♠3♦ ?? 3♦ is invitational (around 15-16) with 5-5 1♥ 2♠ would have been 6♠ 9-11. If jumpshift is invitational, what would be gameforcing? I don't know of anybody else who plays that 3D is only invitational. Anyway, in your methods, 4S now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OleBerg Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 I don't know of anybody else who plays that 3D is only invitational. Then talk to a strong-club player. (Or similar.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 3♠ here is supposed to be forcing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peachy Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 3♠ here is supposed to be forcing... Opposite GF jumpshift. Do you think it is best forcing also opposite invitational 3D?Really, I don't actually need to know since I will never play invit JS, but interested in the argument why it should be forcing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbforster Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 If jumpshift is invitational, what would be gameforcing? I don't know of anybody else who plays that 3D is only invitational. You get invitational and distributional jumps by opener, typically 5/5+, if you're playing precision or playing Gazilli in standard. I might wish I was playing weak jump shifts here (1♥-2♠ as weak rather than invitational), since then it would be clear 3♠ is forcing after opener shows a maximum. Lacking this, I'm glad I have such good spades and don't have too much in terms of extra strength which makes 4♠ acceptable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 3♠ here is supposed to be forcing... Opposite GF jumpshift. Do you think it is best forcing also opposite invitational 3D?Really, I don't actually need to know since I will never play invit JS, but interested in the argument why it should be forcing. Because you might have this hand. Or a hand where you don't know whether 4♠ or 3NT is best. Those are more important than just wanting to sign off in 3♠. When that is the case you can either play in one of opener's suits or get one level higher, it's probably not a disaster. The game and slam decisions are way more important. It's similar reasoning to why 1♦ 1♥, 3♦ 3♥ is forcing in standard bidding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 This hand is so much easier if you just respond 2♣ to establish a game force. I mean, you have three clubs! :P (Just kidding.) Partner has 5-5 and invitational, right? So, he has a decent chance of having a stiff club, but probably has a stiff (or void) spade. However, if he has both Aces in the reds (one is probably sure), then 6♠ looks like a fairly good contract. Now, I assume that you have some agreement as to follow-up, right? Well, I'm wanting to know what bids I have available. I cannot imagine agreeing to play invitational jump shifts like this without any discussion of what bids mean after the jump shift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 We had a discussion about this recently and agreed (at least most of us) that 3♠ is forcing. So that's what I will bid, not giving up on slam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanoi5 Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 I voted for 3♠, as long as it is forcing. If it isn't 4♠ and a discussion afterwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 I don't think it's clear that 3♠ should be forcing. It's not the same as 1♦-1♥;3♦, where diamonds are known to be a playable spot. Here you might have QJ10xxx x xx Kxxx and just want to stop somewhere. I agree, though, that a forcing 3♠ would be nice on this hand. If 3♠ isn't forcing, how about 5♠? We can hardly have three top losers, so the main risk is that we have two aces and a trump to lose. Whilst I hate going off at the five level, I think it's probably worth the risk to try to get to slam opposite x AQxxx Axxxx Kx + wastage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcurt Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 I think it's clear 3♠ is forcing. Playing a style where 3-level bids can be just correcting the partscore is hopeless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ONEferBRID Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 I like gnasher's 5S try = asking for at least 2nd Rnd Ctrl in the unbid suit ( Cl ).... either a stiff or K x . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy_h Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Even if we play invitational jump shifts, I still think 3S now being NF is too unplayable. What if you have enough values for game and not great of a trump suit or as well as no club stopper? Sure if we have a weak hand only opposite 15-16, it's not a "big" deal, but if we have game values it's just too risky to get to the wrong strain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 We had a discussion about this recently and agreed (at least most of us) that 3♠ is forcing. So that's what I will bid, not giving up on slam. No we didn't. That was over a forcing 3D bid. Given the conditions, this is a clear 4S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 I like gnasher's 5S try = asking for at least 2nd Rnd Ctrl in the unbid suit ( Cl ).... either a stiff or K x . If that's what it means, we risk reaching slam opposite x QJ10xx AKQxx Kx, which would be bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 I like gnasher's 5S try = asking for at least 2nd Rnd Ctrl in the unbid suit ( Cl ).... either a stiff or K x . If that's what it means, we risk reaching slam opposite x QJ10xx AKQxx Kx, which would be bad. It would be bad even reaching the 5 level opposite that hand a substantial minority of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyc0002002 Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 I play strong 1♣in my system 3♥ 4♦ are not forcing 3♠ is forcing i vote that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 (edited) We should be using 4♣ as a signoff somewhere and 4♦/♥/♠ as natural slam tries. Edit: Or vice versa. Edited June 13, 2009 by gnasher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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