Bye all the way to the Semis?

[OleBerg]

Are there trials in Norway and Italy, for instance?

 

I heard the Italian Bridge Federation appoints the three pairs that will represent the country.

It is the norm in Europe, that the resident federation appoints the team to represent the country.

 

In Denmark this has very often meant, that the team is composed of pairs from two or three different teams.

 

The practice has it's pro's and con's.

[NickRW]

Are there trials in Norway and Italy, for instance?

 

I heard the Italian Bridge Federation appoints the three pairs that will represent the country.

It is the norm in Europe, that the resident federation appoints the team to represent the country.

 

In Denmark this has very often meant, that the team is composed of pairs from two or three different teams.

 

The practice has it's pro's and con's.

I suspect it mainly has pros when the pairs from different teams have national spirit or when a team captain can create a good team atmosphere (Or when they are the onlyhalf decent pairs anyway). Otherwise it might be better to go with the best overall team.

 

Nick

[mike777]

We have had this discussion often before. I still do not think that the top priority should be to come up with the "best" team. The highest priority should be the open competition itself. If that means the third best team wins the trials, so be it.

 

If you want to give seeds/byes to the best overall team, fine, but make them play in an open competition to represent.

 

If novices win, they win!

[3for3]

On the notion of a pairs trial, one of the winners of this years event is an ardent supporter of using a pairs format for the year that 2 teams are selected.

 

 

The byes seem to be a huge advantage, and yet 2 teams from the RR were in the main final.

 

 

There have been proposals for a 'somewhat' closed tournament, which would limit the amount of byes, but that is not happening in the current setup.

[Jlall]

strange vugraph attendance:

 

300  watching "A" final

1700 watching "B" quarterfinal

 

yvan

Well, it is the last quarter for the quarterfinal, and still in the first half for the final: might be part of the reason.

And, the final is not particularly close.

And the USA 2 match has clearly better teams than the USA 1 match lol.

[JoAnneM]

Do we want the teams with the best reputations to go, or do we want the teams who are playing the best bridge at the time to go. I think that is a crucial question. I would also favor limiting byes.

[awm]

I think we want the team playing the best bridge to go.

 

The Nickell team was arguably the best in the world for many years (their only serious competition being the Italians) but the loss of Paul Soloway has hurt them somewhat. While Zia Mahmood is certainly a world-class player, Hamman and Soloway had a great partnership and I'm not convinced the team is as strong as it once was. Players age as well, and at some point the level of play deteriorates. It's not obvious that the Nickell team will always be the best team to send to everything (especially if the composition of the team changes!) just because they were a dominant force for so long.

[jdonn]

The Nickell team got a bye because of results this year, not because they have a reputation as the best team over a long time period.

 

Also if they are getting worse, then I think age is very likely the reason but Zia for Soloway is not. I believe Zia is a better player, and him and Hamman have been playing for decades too.

[Gerben42]

The team is not representing just themselves in the Bermuda Bowl, they are representing a country. For this reason I think every nation should send the team that at the time of the tournament seems to have the biggest chance of doing well (goal may differ for countries, for USA the goal will be 1st place of course).

 

How this is done best is of course difficult, as is the same for other national teams. The Dutch soccer team is an example of a team that has, over the last 40 years, been world class in players, but not always world class as a team. For this reason, picking just 3 pairs may not work best. However this is the method used in the Netherlands, but here the pairs are picked from a pool of 5 or 6 pairs who train together every Friday, so probably they will harmonize as a team also.

 

In Germany, teamwise qualifications happen whenever the open team does not qualify in the top 10 of the European Championships, i.e. unlikely to happen soon.

 

In Poland I think there is a pairwise qualification phase were all may participate, and some pairs may be already set for the team (last time I think Martens - Jassem had this status).

 

So what do I favour? I would say a teamwise qualification (4-handed) and the choice for the 3rd pair from a rather short list.

[cherdanno]

I think we want the team playing the best bridge to go.

 

The Nickell team was arguably the best in the world for many years (their only serious competition being the Italians) but the loss of Paul Soloway has hurt them somewhat. While Zia Mahmood is certainly a world-class player, Hamman and Soloway had a great partnership and I'm not convinced the team is as strong as it once was. Players age as well, and at some point the level of play deteriorates. It's not obvious that the Nickell team will always be the best team to send to everything (especially if the composition of the team changes!) just because they were a dominant force for so long.

Whenever there is a KO match between Nickell and any other team except the Italians, I am happy to offer you a bet of 50$ that Nickell is going to win that match.

[fred]

Also if they are getting worse, then I think age is very likely the reason but Zia for Soloway is not. I believe Zia is a better player, and him and Hamman have been playing for decades too.

To me it doesn't make much sense to compare Soloway and Zia as players because they are (or were in the case of Paul) very different types of players.

 

Soloway was perhaps the most "solid" player I have ever played against. The frequency of his errors, even when his health was failing, was extremely low. His bidding judgment was truly exceptional.

 

Zia is what I would call a "flair player" - he is gifted in terms of things like imagination and table presence.

 

IMO Soloway was and Zia still is among the very best (or maybe even the best) of their respective species, but we are talking about 2 very different species of bridge players.

 

Which species turns out to be best in terms of an effective partner for the great Hamman remains to be seen...

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[jdonn]

All I know for sure is the few boards I have played against each, I got whooped...

[barmar]

Which species turns out to be best in terms of an effective partner for the great Hamman remains to be seen...

Of course, one of the things that presumably makes players like Hamman so great over such a long time is that they can adapt and play well with many different types of partners.

 

Furthermore, he's played with and against Zia many times, they both know each other's style. If the two of them didn't agree that they could be nearly as good a partnership as HamWay was, I doubt Zia would have replaced Soloway.

 

I doubt Nickell simply threw Zia onto the team without due diligence like this.

[geller]

On the other hand, in a different sport, such giants as Bill Russell,

Wilt Chamberlain and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar never got one bye

in their entire professional lives. They would not have gotten a bye

even if they had been on the same team.

1. Since the NBA playoffs are a revenue producing sport Kareem et al had to play from the beginning round but if their team was the top seed they were matched against the bottom team in their conference, and thus effectively got a bye.

 

2. IIRC there was a time when there were twelve teams in the NBA playoffs and the top four teams got a first round bye.

 

3. In the NFL playoffs the top four seeds get a 1st round bye. This is an enormous advantage because they get an extra week of rest, and play their first game at home.

[Phil]

By the way, does anyone know what is happening with Nickell? Someone at the vugraph mentioned Freeman was sick and left NY, but Nick hadn't played any of the first two segments I don't believe.

[mtvesuvius]

By the way, does anyone know what is happening with Nickell? Someone at the vugraph mentioned Freeman was sick and left NY, but Nick hadn't played any of the first two segments I don't believe.

Yes, they are 4 handed for the final match, apparently if someone cannot play the sufficient # of boards in a match for a clearly non-bridge related reason (i.e. health problems) they can be exempt from playing a match (along with their regular partner). This is what I have heard... I haven't verified it.

[USViking]

Did any of the players on the last US Olympic basketball teams play in any "trials" in order to make the team?

 

How about the baseball players which represented the US in the World Baseball Classic?

 

No, these players got a bye all the way to their selection.  Of course, their performance in the regular season(s) was a major factor in their selection.

 

The USBF Trials are somewhere in between selection of players for the US Olympic basketball team and selection of professional basketball teams to play in the NBA post-season playoffs.

 

Anyway, I don't think your analogy between USBF team selection and Russell, Chamberlain and Abdul-Jabbar is quite on.  If professional athletes had been eligible for US Olympic teams when these players were in their prime, they would have absolutely had a bye onto the team.

You are correct that my analogy is imperfect.

 

It would be more precise if the US Olympic team

had been the NBA champion prior to the introduction

of so many non-Americans to the NBA.

 

Now the team would have to be a hybrid if it were to

consist of a core of the NBA champ.

 

As it is the US Olympic basketball team has always

been chosen by commitee.

 

The fact remains that in North American professional sport

byes are not universally employed, and never, I think, for

more than one round. Certainly not for four rounds!

 

I am still waiting for a convincing argument as to why

Bridge should be an exception.

[USViking]

1. Since the NBA playoffs are a revenue producing sport Kareem et al had to play from the beginning round but if their team was the top seed they were matched against the bottom team in their conference, and thus effectively got a bye.

Incorrect in characterizing seeding as equivilant to a bye.

 

If you must play do not have a bye.

 

If I were to comb google I believe I could come up with

a case where a 1st seed lost to a last seed, although

perhaps not in the NBA to date. It is only a matter of

time before it happens in the NBA.

 

 

 

 

2. IIRC there was a time when there were twelve teams in the NBA playoffs and the top four teams got a first round bye. 

I missed the fact that there were byes for a few NBA seasons,

most lately over 30 years ago. The fact remains that the no-bye

format has been much more prevelant.

 

 

 

 

3. In the NFL playoffs the top four seeds get a 1st round bye. This is an enormous advantage because they get an extra week of rest, and play their first game at home. 

I have not taken issue with the one-bye system.

 

Get back with me on the four-bye system if you can think

of anything which does not involve altering word definitions.

[jdonn]

Why should bridge be like any other sport? Just think of it as they have combined selecting a team with anyone being able to try out. Since other "sports" are usually not open for anyone to try out, they obviously won't have the same system.

[Jlall]

THEY EARNED IST WATF IS THE PROBLEM GUYSSSSSSssssssssssssssssss???????

[Jlall]

Also if they are getting worse, then I think age is very likely the reason but Zia for Soloway is not. I believe Zia is a better player, and him and Hamman have been playing for decades too.

To me it doesn't make much sense to compare Soloway and Zia as players because they are (or were in the case of Paul) very different types of players.

 

Soloway was perhaps the most "solid" player I have ever played against. The frequency of his errors, even when his health was failing, was extremely low. His bidding judgment was truly exceptional.

 

Zia is what I would call a "flair player" - he is gifted in terms of things like imagination and table presence.

 

IMO Soloway was and Zia still is among the very best (or maybe even the best) of their respective species, but we are talking about 2 very different species of bridge players.

 

Which species turns out to be best in terms of an effective partner for the great Hamman remains to be seen...

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

Yeah man, they were/are ridic good. But I believe the Zia type is a better type of partner for Hamman. Of course this is just speculation.

[USViking]

Why should bridge be like any other sport? Just think of it as they have combined selecting a team with anyone being able to try out. Since other "sports" are usually not open for anyone to try out, they obviously won't have the same system.

I am asking why bridge should be different, and replies like this

do not provide any explanation.

 

As for the "openess", there were 27 teams in the tournament,

quite a few I will allow, but are you saying anyone could have

shown up with a team and joined the field?

[USViking]

THEY EARNED IST WATF IS THE PROBLEM GUYSSSSSSssssssssssssssssss???????

Stop screeching.

[Stephen Tu]

The fact remains that in North American professional sport

byes are not universally employed, and never, I think, for

more than one round. Certainly not for four rounds!

 

I am still waiting for a convincing argument as to why

Bridge should be an exception.

 

Depends if you are running the contest for the sake of having a contest, or for the sake of determining the best team to be your country's representative. These trials are run over a limited period of time, there is always a certain amount of luck involved between teams this close even over 120 boards, and here the early rounds are half that. Allowing good teams byes in effect just makes the big NABC events part of the trials, and reduces the luck factor, since I think it's undisputable that repeated top finishes in recent Spingold/Reisinger etc. are more proof of level than knocking off a top seed in a single 60 bd match.

 

If you wanted to run a single tourney to determine the best tennis player in the world at the moment, you would want to give Nadal/Federer byes to at least the quarters if not the semis, you don't make them slog out early rounds to get upset by the Soderlings of the world.

 

As long as everyone has an equal chance of obtaining byes by doing well in the open NABC events, I don't see any unfairness. Maybe you could argue about adjusting formulas so that it's harder to get bye all the way to the semis, maybe you only want to see at most byes to the quarters? That would be OK with me. Anyway I think the USBF must have voted on this so the people involved think it's OK as is.

 

Also when you bring up the NBA, they have no byes now but they are running best-of-7 series. Would you also think no byes was best if they ran it "one-and-done" like the NCAAs, which has much greater luck factor?

 

If they ran much longer trials, I could support no byes, but given the time constraints I think the current strategy produces the best team if you want to run open tournaments.

[jdonn]

Why should bridge be like any other sport? Just think of it as they have combined selecting a team with anyone being able to try out. Since other "sports" are usually not open for anyone to try out, they obviously won't have the same system.

I am asking why bridge should be different, and replies like this

do not provide any explanation.

 

As for the "openess", there were 27 teams in the tournament,

quite a few I will allow, but are you saying anyone could have

shown up with a team and joined the field?

My last sentence offered an explanation.

 

And yes, anyone could play (they have to preregister, they can't just show up). Which is why the system is the way it is. It is a medium between the two goals, letting anyone play and at least have a shot to win, but making it very likely that a strong team will actually win.