EricK Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 [hv=d=s&v=n&n=sq7ha983daj95cak9&s=sakjt3hkq62dcqj84]133|200|Scoring: MP[/hv]Can you diagnose the 13 cold top tricks and bid to 7NT? Playing with an intermediate level partner, our auction (please promise you won't laugh) was1♠ 3♦3NT 6NTNot a thing of beauty, but at least we got to a slam and beat the pairs in 6♥! But even after a saner start like1♠ 2♦2♥it doesn't seem all that easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiddity Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 How about 1S-2C; 2H-3H; 4C-4S (diamond control and spade honor), followed by keycard? Or 1S-2D; 2H-3H; 3S-4S and keycard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 Opener: 1♠ Responder: 2♣ Opener: 2♥Responder: 3♥ (trumps set)Opener: 3♠ (two of the top three spades)Responder: 3NT (serious interest -- the known solid spades and primes)Opener: 5♦ (Exclusion RKCB)Responder: 5♥ (two, without)Opener: 5♠ (do you have the missing spade?)Responder: 6♣ (yes, plus the club King) At this point, Opener can count, if hearts split 3-2 (or the suit can otherwise be picked up), an assured four hearts, five spades, and four clubs in pure tricks, plus at least one ruff, for 14+ tricks. But, he might as well push forward with more questions, in case 7NT is better. So... Opener: 6♦ (grand slam last train -- will bid 7♥ anyway, probably, but...)Responder: 7♦ (I have this Ace)Opener: 7NT With five sure spades, three sure hearts, one sure diamond, four sure clubs, Opener has 13 tricks even if hearts split 4-0 or 5-1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 If you want something simple since you have an intermediate level partner, after opener's 2♥ rebid responder could simply bid blackwood (he could set trumps first if need be) and the keycards and spade king give him 12 top tricks. 13 could come from the jack of spades, ten of spades with Jx falling, a 3-3 spade break, a sixth spade, the queen of clubs, the jack of clubs with the queen falling, the queen of diamonds with a finesse, or the ever-present 'could be a squeeze'. Seems like way more than is needed to chance 7NT to me. Even if you didn't think so, reaching 7♥ would be very easy, it involves responder bidding keycard for hearts at any point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Its an easy relay hand 1♣ 1NT2♣ 2♦2♥ 2NT3♣ 4♦4♥ 5♥5♠ 5NT7NT 1♣ 16+ 1NT 8+ Bal 2♣, 2♥, 3♣, 4♥, 5♠ all relays 2♦ hearts and diamonds or spades and clubs or 4-3-3-3 with a major 2NT doubleton spade so 2=4=4=3 4♦ 7 controls 5♥ top honour (A,K or Q) in every suit no second honour in hearts 5NT no second honour in diamonds so now responder must be QxAxxxAxxxAKx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 [hv=d=s&v=n&n=sq7ha983daj95cak9&s=sakjt3hkq62dcqj84]133|200|Scoring: MP[/hv]Can you diagnose the 13 cold top tricks and bid to 7NT? Playing with an intermediate level partner, our auction (please promise you won't laugh) was1♠ 3♦3NT 6NTNot a thing of beauty, but at least we got to a slam and beat the pairs in 6♥! But even after a saner start like1♠ 2♦2♥it doesn't seem all that easy. Seems many roads lead to 7H.....7nt is a bit tougher to find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 This is a baby hand for any decent relay system, Erik.Playing a natural system., I find the 2C bids by some posters contrived. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 I would respond 2♣ 10000% of the time, I just saw no point in saying so since it wasn't relevant to the points I was making and always sidetracks the discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 I would respond 2♣ 10000% of the time, I just saw no point in saying so since it wasn't relevant to the points I was making and always sidetracks the discussion. Do you make this psyche against beginners? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 I would respond 2♣ 10000% of the time, I just saw no point in saying so since it wasn't relevant to the points I was making and always sidetracks the discussion. Do you make this psyche against beginners? Yes. I also alert it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 If you want something simple since you have an intermediate level partner, after opener's 2♥ rebid responder could simply bid blackwood (he could set trumps first if need be) and the keycards and spade king give him 12 top tricks. 13 could come from the jack of spades, ten of spades with Jx falling, a 3-3 spade break, a sixth spade, the queen of clubs, the jack of clubs with the queen falling, the queen of diamonds with a finesse, or the ever-present 'could be a squeeze'. Seems like way more than is needed to chance 7NT to me. Even if you didn't think so, reaching 7♥ would be very easy, it involves responder bidding keycard for hearts at any point. AS so often, Josh is right on track. With an int. partner bid KC. And later discuss that 1 ♠ 2 ♦ is already forcing and that 1 ♠ 2 ♦2♥ 3 ♥ is best played as GF with SI even in a non 2/1 system. In a natural system, I had bid 1 ♠ 2 ♦2♥ 3♥3♠ 3 NT (Cue, serious)4♥ 4 NT (Cannot cue shortness in D, RCKB)5 ♠ 5 NT (2+Q, kings?)7♥ (I have the solid spades and immense ruffing values, must be enough) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 I would respond 2♣ 10000% of the time, I just saw no point in saying so since it wasn't relevant to the points I was making and always sidetracks the discussion. Do you make this psyche against beginners? Trying to be clever? Back to the drawing board I hope... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted June 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 If you want something simple since you have an intermediate level partner, after opener's 2♥ rebid responder could simply bid blackwood (he could set trumps first if need be) and the keycards and spade king give him 12 top tricks. 13 could come from the jack of spades, ten of spades with Jx falling, a 3-3 spade break, a sixth spade, the queen of clubs, the jack of clubs with the queen falling, the queen of diamonds with a finesse, or the ever-present 'could be a squeeze'. Seems like way more than is needed to chance 7NT to me. Even if you didn't think so, reaching 7♥ would be very easy, it involves responder bidding keycard for hearts at any point. After eg 1♠ 2♦2♥ 4NT (assume it's Keycard Blackwood with ♥ agreed)5♠ (2 plus ♥Q)how does responder know about the ♠K? And (this is in response to Ken, really) if responder supports ♥ first, does a 3♠ cue-bid really promise two top honours? How does does opener bypass to spades to cue something else with either zero or one top honour? This is a good idea on this hand, but not so good on many others I would think. And in response to Codo, in your sequence, how does opener know about the solid spades? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 And in response to Codo, in your sequence, how does opener know about the solid spades? Opener knows that responder ist still trying for grand slam despite his failure to cuebid a minor. So far opener has shown 54?? and two KCs with the queen of hearts. He could have Axxxx,KQxxx,Qx,Qx and bid the same way. So now he knows that the grand slam must be real good bet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 I would respond 2♣ 10000% of the time, I just saw no point in saying so since it wasn't relevant to the points I was making and always sidetracks the discussion. Do you make this psyche against beginners? Trying to be clever? Back to the drawing board I hope... Bidding your third best suit at your first opportunity seems like a gross misstatement of your suit length to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajm218 Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Seems pretty easy to reach on any 2/1 normal sequence I'm a 100000% 2♣ bidder too - i didn't use to bid 2♣ when i started playing 2/1 on these hands but experience and good partners have convinced me its completely automatic to... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Bidding 1♠ 2♦2♥ 3♥ ... is silly unless you have specifically agreed that this is forcing. Since 3♥ may well end the auction. With responder's 19 HCP you need to bid 4th suit forcing or force in some other way e.g. RKCB at your second turn to bid. If RKCB is not used then this is likely to be the point at which this hand becomes difficult for standard (non 2/1 GF) systems. Many pairs will not have firm agreements for this auction. Especially when both partner's have extra values that are difficult to show. We might bid ... 1♠ 2♦2♥ 3♣4NT ... Natural and quantitative - about 15-17 Responder can almost pinpoint opener's hand now: ♠ AKxxx♥ KQxx♦ x♣ QJx is a minimum and we might be discouraged with this minimum with only one club stopper and no known fit. So I would be expecting something extra from opener for 4NT. And therefore can almost bid 7NT directly here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 If you want something simple since you have an intermediate level partner, after opener's 2♥ rebid responder could simply bid blackwood (he could set trumps first if need be) and the keycards and spade king give him 12 top tricks. 13 could come from the jack of spades, ten of spades with Jx falling, a 3-3 spade break, a sixth spade, the queen of clubs, the jack of clubs with the queen falling, the queen of diamonds with a finesse, or the ever-present 'could be a squeeze'. Seems like way more than is needed to chance 7NT to me. Even if you didn't think so, reaching 7♥ would be very easy, it involves responder bidding keycard for hearts at any point. After eg 1♠ 2♦2♥ 4NT (assume it's Keycard Blackwood with ♥ agreed)5♠ (2 plus ♥Q)how does responder know about the ♠K? And (this is in response to Ken, really) if responder supports ♥ first, does a 3♠ cue-bid really promise two top honours? How does does opener bypass to spades to cue something else with either zero or one top honour? This is a good idea on this hand, but not so good on many others I would think. And in response to Codo, in your sequence, how does opener know about the solid spades? For my part, yes. Opener's 3♠ does show two top spade honors. You ask how does partner bypass spades to cue something else with no or only one spade control. The answer is that he bids something other than 3♠, and so does it. Now, the presence or lack of one spade control may govern whether Opener is or is not "serious" in some situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 I also don't get why the same stupid discussions keeps getting run through again. 2♣ is an obvious, non-copntrived response for many of us. As proof, read the bridge base forums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 After 1♠-2♦ (not GF); 2♥-3♣, I'd bid 4♣, showing the values for 4NT with this precise shape. This is unexplored territory for me, but over that 5♥ must be forcing and setting trumps, then maybe 5♠-5NT (GSF); 6♥ (two)-7♦ (pick a grand); 7NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 After 1♠-2♦ (not GF); 2♥-3♣, I'd bid 4♣, showing the values for 4NT with this precise shape. That is great for this hand but it won't happen that often. Although I guess there is not many other uses for the bid. We actually play it shows extra values but denies the ability to make a more descriptive bid - so no club stopper and no extra length. Whatever it shows 4♥ would be strong so I agree a jump to 5♥ would be forcing. This is exactly the sort of thing that most partnerships have not discussed and make these auctions murky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 I would respond 2♣ 10000% of the time, I just saw no point in saying so since it wasn't relevant to the points I was making and always sidetracks the discussion. Do you make this psyche against beginners? Trying to be clever? Back to the drawing board I hope... Bidding your third best suit at your first opportunity seems like a gross misstatement of your suit length to me. How do you know what suit length I have promised?Are you saying opening 1♣ with 4423 is a psych?How is the smallest possible difference 'gross'?Are you just trying to win a bet with someone over how many threads you can destroy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skjaeran Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Strongly prefer a 2♣ response here (I think it's best even with 3442). It leaves the most space for opener to show his hand, you're much better placed after a 2♦ response showing 5 (or a good 4-card if you prefer). Of course you put this on your system card and alert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 1♠ - 2♣ (nat 5+♠ ; GF relay except rebid)2♥ - 2NT (nat 4+♥ any strength ; GF relay with ♥ fit)3♦ - 3♥ (16+ with shortness ; relay)3NT - 4♣ (short ♦ ; cue, the ♥ fit was already confirmed)4♦ - 7NT (1st round control ; we already know enough) After knowing about the ♦ void and 16+HCP there's at most a Jack missing. It could be ♠J obviously, but you can't find out. And even then grand has chances... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 I would respond 2♣ 10000% of the time, I just saw no point in saying so since it wasn't relevant to the points I was making and always sidetracks the discussion. Do you make this psyche against beginners? Trying to be clever? Back to the drawing board I hope... Bidding your third best suit at your first opportunity seems like a gross misstatement of your suit length to me. How do you know what suit length I have promised?Are you saying opening 1♣ with 4423 is a psych?How is the smallest possible difference 'gross'?Are you just trying to win a bet with someone over how many threads you can destroy? There was no suggestion from any of the early posters who suggested 2♣ that this was anything but normal. For example Ken explained all of his bids after 2♥ but none of those before - 1♠ 2♣ and 2♥. You yourself used the ridiculous hyperbole "10000%" as if this was a normal action. As far as I can recall I have never seen a player alert this sort of treatment when I have been playing online or offline nor when I have been watching a vugraph presentation. I have observed occasional times when players have responded in non-standard suits. It seems clear there is a disclosure issue with these non-standard methods. If you don't disclose it then the assumption is that it is a deviation from you agreed methods and therefore maybe a psyche. If I opened 1♣ on 4=4=2=3 then it would be a deviation from my announced system. In some circumstances this could be a psyche yes. If by smallest possible deviation you mean one card then it can easily be a psyche: 1♠ 4♣ Splinter on ♠ A765♥ K976♦ K32♣ 74 minimal one card deviation - psyche? 1NT on ♠ 2♥ 432♦ AKQJT♣ AJ54 one card deviation - psyche? 1♠ on ♠ 5432♥ AKQJT♦ K4♣ Q2 one card deviation - psyche? The example in the other thread that you laughed at was a 1=2=4=6 hand. For many 2=2=4=5 would be a normal 1NT shape. So even that example could be considered as a one-card deviation. Would it have been more acceptable to you if it was 1=3=3=6 which is merely a one-card deviation. It seems to me to be very convenient to complain about others minor system deviations and label them as psyches and argue some moral high ground that one should not perpetrate these actions against beginners etc but be dismissive of your own non-standard deviations. Perhaps you alert and disclose this deviation appropriately I do not know. If you write about it as if it is standard when it is not then there is at least a suggestion that you might not. Others - Phil and Skaeran - have properly said that this method would be disclosed. I have a point that I want to make it seemed to me an appropriate place to make the point. You can feel free to get nasty if my point of view doesn't fully agree with yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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