How do you open and bid this (playing precision)

[Chamaco]

Hi all, here's a hand I played tonight at my club, I'll appreciate all comments !! Thanks a lot !!! :(

 

Mauro

--------

 

 

[hv=d=s&v=b&s=skq873hxxdkqjt9xc]133|100|Scoring: XIMP[/hv]

 

You play precision with 1D including 13-15 balanced, and all unbalanced hands with diamonds, including 6D-5M.

 

Question 1:

do you open a systemic 1D ?

or a "tactical" 1S ? (e.g. Boss suit first, harder for opps to compete, if 5c major was heart, it would different)

------------------------------------------------------------

 

Question 2

I opened 1D. Bidding proceeded

 

1♦-(2♣)-pass-(2♥)

3♠-(4♥)-4♠-(5♣)

?

 

Do u bid 5 spades or pass or (ouch!)double ? And why ?

-------------------------------------------------------------

 

Question 3

I ended up playing 5 spades and received a club lead.

Actually here, being at IMPS, the trump play did not really matter because I had 2 hearts losers with the A♥ offside.

But assume I was playing 4 spades with club lead. Which would be the best way to play trumps for one loser ?

Leading twice towards KQ of spades ? Maybe percentage play "a priori" but likely to fail since most high cards rates to be with LHO (who overcalled a vulnerable 2C) ?

 

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=stxxhkxdaxxc98732&s=skq873hxxdkqjt9xc]133|200|Scoring: XIMP

1♦-2♣-p-2♥

3♠-4♥-4♠[/hv]

[Flame]

1. bid 1d, bididng spade later will show the your 6-5. I dont care about them too much prefer to show what i got.

2. if your 3sp showed 5-6 and i think it does then, you should not bid on now, you already showed what you got.

3. you dont have that many alternatives , also not too many dummy entries, playing spade like you said works vs Axx on either hand and also vs Ax on side. as you dont have the entry for a second finnese you can either get in dummy with diamond and play for Ax on RHO, or play K of spade from hand.

As a suit play , small to the K is better then playing the K, but here because of the diamonds getting ruff problem, i think the K spade play is better.

Edited May 25, 2004 by Flame

[the hog]

I believe that this hand should be opened with 1S rather than 1D. This hand has good playing strength, but is limited in terms of points. It is particularly important to get your major in first.

 

Our strongly held view is that we only open such hands in a minor IF we are happy to bid 4S over the opponent's 4H if that is the bid that comes back to us. This hand does not qualify. Note how the auction for your opps is much harder after 1S (2C) 2S. To show H now, rho will have to bid this at the three level.

 

I think your 3S bid is an overbid.

 

Best line is to lead to SA twice. Cross to D A, risking a ruff and play S to K. If this holds, chance a H up. You will go down a lot if S are 4-1, but then you were neve going to make this anyway.

[keylime]

Hi all, here's a hand I played tonight at my club, I'll appreciate all comments !! Thanks a lot !!! :(

 

Mauro

--------

 

 

[hv=d=s&v=b&s=skq873hxxdkqjt9xc]133|100|Scoring: XIMP[/hv]

 

You play precision with 1D including 13-15 balanced, and all unbalanced hands with diamonds, including 6D-5M.

 

Question 1:

do you open a systemic 1D ?

or a "tactical" 1S ? (e.g. Boss suit first, harder for opps to compete, if 5c major was heart, it would different)

------------------------------------------------------------

 

Question 2

I opened 1D. Bidding proceeded

 

1♦-(2♣)-pass-(2♥)

3♠-(4♥)-4♠-(5♣)

?

 

Do u bid 5 spades or pass or (ouch!)double ? And why ?

-------------------------------------------------------------

 

Question 3

I ended up playing 5 spades and received a club lead.

Actually here, being at IMPS, the trump play did not really matter because I had 2 hearts losers with the A♥ offside.

But assume I was playing 4 spades with club lead. Which would be the best way to play trumps for one loser ?

Leading twice towards KQ of spades ? Maybe percentage play "a priori" but likely to fail since most high cards rates to be with LHO (who overcalled a vulnerable 2C) ?

 

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=stxxhkxdaxxc98732&s=skq873hxxdkqjt9xc]133|200|Scoring: XIMP

1♦-2♣-p-2♥

3♠-4♥-4♠[/hv]

1♠ is absolutely clearcut. Bidding a Precision diamond on that hand is begging for issues. So what is LHO flies out a 2♣ O/C with 2♥ follow-on from RHO? You can bid 3♦, and pass whatever partner does since it looks like it's their hand (unless there's a trap pass, which sometimes happens - but with soft values here, better be safe).

[mishovnbg]

1. 1♠ any system. As Ron wrote to open 1 of minor with 6-5 you must be prepared to rebid it at 4 level. Example of hand from tourney:

-,K10xxx,AKQxxxx,x - I opened it 1♦.

2. Pass - forcing. 4L are enough for that and void ♣ is nice for own game.

3. No double, no trouble, both A are not in same hand. If A♥ is off, then A♠ is off too, сhakespearian tragedy expected. So Ron's line seems best imho.

Misho

Edited May 26, 2004 by mishovnbg

[whereagles]

1. I'm going against the field here. This is precision, not 2/1. Playing precision, 1♦ is a fine bid. You have spades, meaning you can show your hand easily at any level. If the 2nd suit was hearts I might try a 1♥ opener instead, but as it is, I prefer 1♦ under normal conditions.

 

It is very typical precision, to open these hands 1♦ and later jump on the major, as you did. The 3♠ is an excellent bid. Overbid in 2/1 yes, but the one and only correct bid in precision. If you don't bid 3♠ with that hand at that time, you might as well forget about precision.

 

2. I have zero defense and 100% offense, so I really can't see how a pard who passed 2♣ is going to take three tricks on a double-fit auction. Did pard try to push them to the 5-level? Possible, but with this all-offense hand I prefer to take my chances and bid on. I'll bid 5♦, showing strong diamonds, and leaving for pard to decide an eventual 5♠ save.

 

3. Playing 4♠ the Hog's line seems fine. Playing 5♠ doubled, I'd lead towards spade king and, if it holds, give up a spade. Hope to make 3 spades + 6 diamonds for 9 tricks and -500.

[the hog]

"1♦ is a fine bid."

Nonsense!

 

"It is very typical precision, to open these hands 1♦ and later jump on the major, as you did. "

 

Even greater nonsense! In not one of the precision partnerships in which I have ever played, including with a number of internationals, would 1D have ever been even remotely contemplated.

 

 

regardless of what system you play, the correct opening on a weak 2 suiter is in the Major.

 

"If you don't bid 3♠ with that hand at that time, you might as well forget about precision."

 

You clearly have very little understanding of light opening systems - sorry to be blunt, but this is true. Have a look at the comments made by Misho. Open a hand like this with 1D and you will be pre empted to high heaven and if you bid 4S over 4H will often subject yourself to a big penalty.

 

The ideas you express are typical of those who do not appreciate the value of Major suits in limited hands.

[Ulrich]

Ha! Hoggie. You are totally correct in your comments; perhaps there is hope for you after all. Anyone who opens this hand with 1D has no idea about bidding!

 

Ulrich von Liechtenstein PSPEM

[whereagles]

-- Edit. Discussion adjourned --

[OSH]

I played the same hand yesterday.

After 1♠ - (2♣) - 2♠,

East didn't introduce his hearts but raised clubs, and I played 4S:

1♠ - (2♣) - 2♠ - (3♣)

4♠ - all pass

 

After the club lead, I played the ♠K (the line suggested by flame), because I have only one entry to dummy (of course, trumps must be 3-2)

This line wins when LHO has both the missing major aces.

If they are bad placed, after losing two hearts and ♠A, I can still win playing West for ♠AJ or ♠A9 (as it was), intrafinessing (is this correct?) the ♠T from dummy.

As the cards lies, playing a small diamond to ace loses because West has only one diamond.

 

In the real life, West (who didn't now my diamonds' length! ...and yes, wasn't very brilliant ;) ), shifted to diamond at trick 3, and now I win with both ♠A9 or ♠AJ on my left: ♦A, ♠Q and all the diamonds, East can ruff but I lose only one heart.

[the hog]

Your comment shows precisely another reason for opening weak hands like this with 1S. You hide the distribution. The most likely game for your side after all is 4S.

[inquiry]

Time to disagree with many of my friends. It is seldom they are wrong, so it useful when I can point out the errors in their ways. :-)

 

I open this hand 1♦ and will bid 3/4♠ later. With an excellent 5/6, no remarkable defense, and great offense (look at quality of the two suits) I am not going to let them play 3 or 4 ♥ regardless. The best way to clue partner in to what you have is to show them in the proper light.

 

This is especially true at precision, because there (ulike 2/1 GF) when I open 1♦ and then rebid 4♠ on an auction like

 

1♦-(1♥)-p-(4♥)

4♠

 

Partner will not play me for a monster hand with two suits that was inappropriate for a 2♣ opening bid.

 

How should I bid over 5♣? I should pass, this one is not close. I have shown my values and partner couldn't make negative double or bid 1♠ over 1♥.

 

How should I play after a ♣ lead? I can lose control if not careful. So I play for 3-2 trumps. Lead out spade A, ruff club, lead out spade queen, then start on ♦, let them make their third trump (as long as J didn't fall) whenever. I plan on ruffing my a ♥ in dummy if htye don't lead a ♥ when in with the ♦ ruff. My hope is 4♠, 5♦ and a ♥ ruff. Who knows if rightee has the ♠Jxx, I am golden if they try to continue to try the force in ♣.

[the hog]

Ah Ben, how the mighty have fallen. Et tu Beniamino! I wonder how you would bid the hand vulnerable against not. I'll bet the Fosters I owe you you would not bid 4S over 4H if that came back to you. If not, I'd ask you why you are bidding the hand differently vul vs not vul. If you claim you would bid 4S - I don't believe you. You are too good a player to make such a bad bid - now get out of that one :-)

 

With regard to the play, I assume you mean lead the SK. The defenders have the A.

[Chamaco]

Thanks to all those who replied.

I'll try to summarize in my own words the results of this poll:

 

1) most people would open the hand 1S, fearing a jammed auction that cannot show a spade 5 bagger if open 1D.

But there are players who believe that this specific hand has so much offense that would not be scared to open 1D and bid spades later, whatever the bidding level.

My personal consideration I still believe that this hand can bid at the 4 level on his own after opening 1D and opps jamming the bidding:

Using ZAR: 34 zar points + whatever adjustment if there is a fit

Using LTC: 4.5 losers

 

If pard has nothing to contribute, they have at least game or slam on.

But then again, this is probably one of the many reason why I am not an expert ! ;)

 

2) Sacrificing at the 5 level

I am still struggling with eveluating my decision whether to bid on or not at 5 spades.

I chose to bid for the following: I have no defense at all, and opps have shown a double fit fot hearts and clubs, there must be more trciks than trumps around.

Also, a long suit like my diams gives additional potential for squeeze plays.

If one of my Kings were an Ace, I'll think twice before bidding, but as it is, I bid.

Also, note that as it is, 5 hearts for opps is laydown unless diams are 2-2 AND we find a defense including diamond lead and a club ruff in return, and cashing the other diamonds.

With any other layout or play, E-W will lose 1 or 2 diamonds, draw trumps, and discard spade losers (3-2 split) on clubs.

 

3) Best way to play trumps for one loser

I liked the clear explanation by flame: I have 1 trump loser for sure, I have to play for Hx on one side and Hxx on the other.

Leading twice to KQ wins only with Ax on the RIGHT side, whereas cashing KQ wins with Jx on either side.

Final question on this layout: would you play the same holding the 9 ?

E.g. same bidding, same hand but trumps are:

 

North T9x

South KQ873

 

Thanks !

 

Mauro

[Chamaco]

The ideas you express are typical of those who do not appreciate the value of Major suits in limited hands.

Sorry, but needs more explanation for me.

 

I am not experienced as you all folks :( , but I thought that playing Precision, the hand is limited anyway in HCP.

 

So (still thinking aloud... ;) ) my evaluation should not be based on HCP but on playing strength.

As I posted elsewhere, I thgink that my ODR is as high as it could be, and I will bid 4S on any opps bid.

 

(Still thinking aloud... :P ) My only fear is that bidding 1D and ONLY then showing spades is not preemptive enough and will make it easier to opps to compete at the 5 level.

 

(Still thinking aloud... :blink: ) With a 6-5 bagger and worse ODR ratio, say ♠ATxxx+♦Axxxxx+Ax♣, I'd open 1 spade, this hand has a much worse playing trick potential, and has more defensive tricks.

 

--------------

 

I'll appreciate comments by all you experts on such issues, these are the sort of decisions that an intermediate/beginner often misses, so it is nice to see you folks think aloud :)

[inquiry]

Ron,

 

I must not be as good a player as you think I am, because when I open 1♦ on this h and, I am thinking I will rebid up to 4♠ (if necessary).

 

Ok, if we not vul, even you will agree that this hand will compete to 4♠. And if both are vul, Ithink you will agree as well.

 

So let's take the case where we are vul and they are not. If the auction goes...

 

(ALL THESE, WE VUL, they ARE NOT.

1♦-(1/2/3♥)-P-(4♥), I will bid 4♠

 

If it goes

1♦-(4♥)-P-(P), I will bid 4♠

 

If the bidding goes,

1♦-(2♦)-P-4♥, ok I will not bid 4♠ (2♦ micheales)

 

If bidding goes,

1♦-(1♥)-P-(4♦), where 4♦ is splinter, ok I will not bid 4♠, as ♦A, ♦ruff defense is easy to find....

 

If bidding goes,

1♦-(1♥)-P-(4♣) where 4 club is fit jump, I will duouble suggestign other suits.

 

Any lower bidding, I would get a chance to introduce ♠ at ta lower level, essentially.

 

Ben

[luis]

Sorry I'm late with my comments, It was a national holiday yesterday here in Argentina :-)

 

1) I open 1s, Ron's comments are an excellent summary of the reasons.

2) I bid 5d on the way to 5s since I have 0 tricks maybe 5cx is better but I can't stand it.

3) I play the sT from dummy when I know for sure the sA is offside.

 

Luis

[csdenmark]

Playing Belladonna/Garozzo:

 

Holding 6-5 you need to have 14-15 to show both features. With minimum you open 1♠.

Holding 6♦ + 5♠ you open 1♦ and rebid spades with jump.

Holding 6♠ + 5♦ you open 1♠ and rebid diamonds with jump.

 

In this case only 1♠ is to be opened.

1♠ -*2♣ - Pass=0-7HcP

1♠ -*2♣ - Suit=10+HcP,5+cd

1♠ -*2♣ - Raise=Ignore overcall

1♠ -*2♣ - DBL(2-level)=8-11HcP,

*<3cd supp

*<4cd in opps suit

1♠ -*2♣ - 2NT=11-12,bal + stop

1♠ -*2♣ - CUE=Slam invite

[mikestar]

I don't see what's wrong with taking the vulnerability into account. I would open 1S at unfavorable -- my judgment about competing at the four-level is more conservative then Ben's.

 

I'd be happy opening 1D intending to bid 4S over 4H with neither vul and ecstatic at favorable. At both vul, I think it's a close question. I'd bid 1D but would be comfortable with 1S.

 

Of course this is specific to Precision--in 2/1 partner is too likely to play you for more high cards.

[inquiry]

Of course this is specific to Precision--in 2/1 partner is too likely to play you for more high cards.

Exactly....

[mikestar]

Another consideration: we're assumi'ng that they are likely to bid 4H, but what if it's our hand and partner has long hearts. 1D is likely to work better in this case.

[Chamaco]

The ideas you express are typical of those who do not appreciate the value of Major suits in limited hands.

Sorry, but needs more explanation for me.

 

I am not experienced as you all folks :( , but I thought that playing Precision, the hand is limited anyway in HCP.

 

1) So (still thinking aloud... B) ) my evaluation should not be based on HCP but on playing strength.

As I posted elsewhere, I think that my ODR is as high as it could be, and I will bid 4S on any opps bid.

 

2) (Still thinking aloud... :ph34r: ) My only fear is that bidding 1D and ONLY then showing spades is not preemptive enough and will make it easier to opps to compete at the 5 level.

 

3) (Still thinking aloud... :blink: ) With a 6-5 bagger and worse ODR ratio, say ♠ATxxx+♦Axxxxx+Ax♣, I'd open 1 spade, this hand has a much worse playing trick potential, and has more defensive tricks.

 

----- FROM ANOTHER POST --

 

4) most people would open the hand 1S, fearing a jammed auction...

--- cut ---

My personal consideration I still believe that this hand can bid (spades) at the 4 level on his own after opening 1D and opps jamming the bidding:

Using ZAR: 34 zar points + whatever adjustment if there is a fit

Using LTC: 4.5 losers

If pard has nothing to contribute, they have at least game or slam on.

But then again, this is probably one of the many reason why I am not an expert !

 

5) Sacrificing at the 5 level

I am still struggling with eveluating my decision whether to bid on or not at 5 spades.

I chose to bid for the following: I have no defense at all, and opps have shown a double fit fot hearts and clubs, there must be more trciks than trumps around.

Also, a long suit like my diams gives additional potential for squeeze plays.

If one of my Kings were an Ace, I'll think twice before bidding 5S, but as it is, I bid.

Also, note that as it is, 5 hearts for opps is laydown unless diams are 2-2 AND we find a defense including diamond lead and a club ruff in return, and cashing the other diamonds.

With any other layout or play, E-W will lose 1 or 2 diamonds, draw trumps, and discard spade losers (3-2 split) on clubs.

 

Could some expert comment on my reasoning that led me to bid 1D first and then to bid 5S as a sort of semi-sacrifice ?

 

I'd like to know if and what was wrong in my thought processes, thanks ! :P

[mikestar]

I like your thought processes until the final bid. You have shown your hand and partner will have another chance.

 

Let's consider Law of total tricks. To bid 5 over 5, you need 21 total trumps or compensating distribution. You have an 8 card spade fit, they actually have a 9 acard heart fit. But let's assume they have 10, add a trick for both sides having a double fit, and another for your void--this is still only 20 total tricks. Let's look at some scores:

 

They make We make Score for defending 5h Score for 5S

12 8 -680 -800

11 9 -650 -500

10 10 +100 -300

9 11 +500 +650

8 12 +800 +680

 

These figures assume partner will double them if they have 9 or fewer tricks and they won't double you if you have the balance of power. Not necessarily valid assumptions--but not outlandish, either. Note how badly you lose if the tricks are split 10-20.

 

And this assumes 20 total tricks--if there are 19 (not unreasonable given they have a 9 card heart fit rather than the 10 we assumed), the case for pass is even clearer.

 

As Larry Cohen says "The five level belongs to the opponents."

[Chamaco]

I like your thought processes until the final bid. You have shown your hand and partner will have another chance.

Thanks Mike, I was suspecting that the final 5S bid was greedy.

This is a confirmation, and I liked your arguments :blink:

[the hog]

Hi Chamaco, as you can see there are varied opinions.

For what its worth, I will summarise my views for you.

 

* I have a hand with very good playing strength, but comparatively few high

cards.

 

* Because of my extreme shape, I think there will be a lot of bidding on this hand.

 

* The most likely - note I said *most* likely, game for us is 4S

 

*In an attempt to show my prime feature, (the S suit in my view), I will open 1S

 

* I am hoping this will - 1) allow my partner to raise immediately 2) shut out their H suit if they have it - this may well happen if he can fine a raise, hopefully to the 3 level

 

* I am quite happy to hide the D suit if my partner has a S fit. The D suit is self sufficient and does not need fillers from partner, (thought the A would be nice). Hiding the D suit may well help me in the auction and the play. Bridge is a game for 4 players; unfortunately the opposition frequently jam things up. The best tactical bid is not necessarily the BEST BID.

Incidentally Chamaco, this is one reason I no longer play relay except on line with Richard - it is the best method, but perhaps not the best in a 4 handed game.

 

* You will find Ben making a distiction between 2/1 and Precision. He says he would not bid this way in 2/1 as his partner would expect more in terms of points. Fair comment, but I still open 1M for the reasons I outlined above.

 

If I had a stronger hand, I would be happy to open 1D and the reverse into S and bid S again to show 6-5. With a stronger hand I would fear competition less and the prospects for slam are higher, so it is important for me to describe my hand accurately.

 

With regard to sacrificing:

 

I will certainly admit that in your auction you may be better placed now than I would have been, as you have shown you 6-5 shape. This is the point however - YOU have shown your 6-5 shape. Your partner knows more about your hand than you do about his. Who do you think should make a decision to sacrifice then? It makes sense that the person who knows more takes that decision. This is a little simplistic as many other factors enter into this, but it should give you a starting point for further thought.

 

One final point. I don't believe that I will ALWAYS get the best possible result. However I do believe I will get the best result possible more often than not.

 

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Ron