Precision competitive big club auction

[Chamaco]

[hv=d=s&v=b&s=sjxxhkxxdakcakqtx]133|100|Scoring: MP

1♣-p-1♠*-1NT**

?

*1♠ = 8 + hcp, 5+ card, GF

**1NT = ♥+ ♦ [/hv]

 

 

Some notes.

 

1) In "normal" limited auction (e.g. 1D-p-1M-2y-?), we play support double. Should I double for support or should double show something else ?

 

2) Without overcall, 2♠ would be Trump Asking Bid. Should it be so also after overcall ?

 

3) Do you you look for slam ? If yes, what is the plan for the next rounds of bidding ?

[Free]

Yes I'll look for slam, but I don't know what bids are available. Imo trump quality with p is the most important thing, I don't need ♥ support, but a little bit is always helpful ;) And support Dbl is used to find a 5-3 fit, here you already found it since p bid on 5+ card...

[csdenmark]

This time I understand it is NOT your private system you are concerned of. Bid your TAB. You still have problems to avoid 2 losers. You already have a heart loser but also a winner. You need to be able to run spades without losers. This can be very difficult with the likely 4-1 split. Even 3-2 you may have a hard time to come ashore in 6.

 

If you had been a bit stronger you were ready to advantage from the fools overcalling light of 1♣ providing you excellent strong options for action.

 

Bid TAB - then cue's or CAB and prepare for diamond lead putting your trumps under pressure.

 

If opps. don't lay down their arms - then you will be happy to double for penalty.

[hrothgar]

Few issues here:

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that we're still in a game forcing auction:

IMHO, RHO's 1NT overcall shouldn't cancel the game force.

 

With this said and done, I do think that that the 1NT overcall should impact the meaning of different followup sequences. I'm much more concerned with positioning the partnership for LHO's 3D bid than I am with preserving a full range of Alpha, Beta, Gamma asking bids. I consequence, I think that a 2S bid should set the trump suit, however, I think that its more important that partner bid naturally rather than show length/trump controls.

 

My plan is to bid 2C and then follow by showing Spade support.

 

I'll note in passing, that I'm not worried about the quality of partner's Spades.

Partner has a positive response to 1C and doesn't seem to have many points in Diamonds or Hearts...

[whereagles]

1. No reason to play support doubles here. Support double are meant to find 5-3 fits when 1x-1M can be a 4-card. Since here 1M is always a 5-card, they don't apply.

 

2. Should be TAB, yes. You want to be able to use your asking bid gadgets as often as possible, even when they intervene.

 

3. I want to try a slam yes. Plan is: ask for trump quality, ask for controls, bid 4, 6 or 7 depending on what pard shows.

 

Also, I don't think 1NT was futile. If opener's LHO can scrap up a high level raise on one of the red suits, our line can be in trouble tring to discover which key cards responder has.

[Flame]

1. no when partner show a 5 card suit, support doubles are off. double is imo just a takout bid.

2. yes i think even for the sake of simplicity 2sp should still be tab.

3. slam is very possibe, the 1nt bid makes your K of heart better, tab looks perfect here. if p has all the 3 high then if he doesnt have a heart first cnt i want to be in 6 and if he does i want to be in 7. also if he got all the 3 i prefer 6nt/7nt playing from my hand.

if p only has two honors ill then with AKxxxx i still want to be in 6, and with other 2 honors i want to be there only if he got first round ctl in heart.

[Chamaco]

Thanks all for your help.

There is consensus that 2♠ should be TAb on the way for slam investigation.

 

Now suppose pard shows the following after my inquiries:

1) 5 cards and 2 of the top 3 honors in trumps

2) no control in hearts.

 

Is the slam worth bidding ?

 

Yes, I understand this is more a "slam bidding judgment" question rather than a systemic one, but I need to improve much also in slam bidding !!! ;) :D

-----------------

 

PS- OOpss !! Right after posting I realized Flame has already responded to this question :)

[Free]

That depends on how bad you need a slam ;) If you can stay low and figure out which 2 tophonours he has, you might take a shot at it if he has AK (or perhaps even AQ). It is however a very tight slam imo, so if you need a swing at imps go for it.

 

Don't forget we ALL put ♥A on our right side, but if our dear RHO decided to bid with nothing, you're screwed :D The vulnerability gives us about 80% that his bid was correct imo.

[whereagles]

Ace of hearts is off, so that's one loser. If pard has AKxxx, it's ok, but if he has KQxxx or AQxxx you're in trouble (two aces off or will need 10 of spades + a finesse). Bid slam only if you have the means to know what spade honors pard has.

[hrothgar]

Thanks all for your help.

There is consensus that 2♠ should be TAb on the way for slam investigation.

 

Now suppose pard shows the following after my inquiries:

1) 5 cards and 2 of the top 3 honors in trumps

2) no control in hearts.

 

Is the slam worth bidding ?

 

Yes, I understand this is more a "slam bidding judgment" question rather than a systemic one, but I need to improve much also in slam bidding !!! ;) :D

-----------------

 

PS- OOpss !! Right after posting I realized Flame has already responded to this question :)

Not worth bidding the slam, especially when RHO reates tp be 5-5 in the reds.

[mishovnbg]

Hi Tiger!

 

If you carefully follow what I now write, you will have less troubles after 1♣ precision and your system after 1♣ and opp intervention will not become above 150 pages like most of top players who play precision.

 

Distributive meaning of rebids of 1♣ precision opener are same as not bidded yet, but with correction for stength. Some exceptions are possible of course, but neeed to keep them few. This mean if responder bid was negative, then 1♣ rebids = overcalls; if responder's bid was gf, then rebids = responses to same opening.

 

Misho

[csdenmark]

1. no when partner show a 5 card suit, support doubles are off. double is imo just a takout bid.

2. yes i think even for the sake of simplicity 2sp should still be tab.

3. slam is very possibe, the 1nt bid makes your K of heart better, tab looks perfect here. if p has all the 3 high then if he doesnt have a heart first cnt i want to be in 6 and if he does i want to be in 7. also if he got all the 3 i prefer 6nt/7nt playing from my hand.

if p only has two honors ill then with AKxxxx i still want to be in 6, and with other 2 honors i want to be there only if he got first round ctl in heart.

No DBL will never be for takeout. DBL will always be for penalty and you DBL here for penalty if you decide not to explore slam. 1NT will be down at least 3.

 

The correct action is really TAB and if partner shows 5 carder slam is nearly off. If partner show 6 carder he will likely have one of the queens(♥♥) else his response would have been 2♠ and not 1♠.

 

You try CAB and if you here receive 3 controls slam will be off. If you receive 4 controls you bid RKCB to explore which of the queens. 5♠ will make.

[Flame]

Thanks all for your help.

There is consensus that 2♠ should be TAb on the way for slam investigation.

 

Now suppose pard shows the following after my inquiries:

1) 5 cards and 2 of the top 3 honors in trumps

2) no control in hearts.

 

Is the slam worth bidding ?

 

Yes, I understand this is more a "slam bidding judgment" question rather than a systemic one, but I need to improve much also in slam bidding !!! ;) :D

-----------------

 

PS- OOpss !! Right after posting I realized Flame has already responded to this question :)

no, if partner has 2 honors 5 card and no heart ctl then 6 when partner doesnt have AK of spade 6 is triable, and when he does still 6 is less then 40%, so i wouldnt even try to find which top trump honors partner has.

[keylime]

[hv=d=s&v=b&s=sjxxhkxxdakcakqtx]133|100|Scoring: MP

1♣-p-1♠*-1NT**

?

*1♠ = 8 + hcp, 5+ card, GF

**1NT = ♥+ ♦ [/hv]

 

 

Some notes.

 

1) In "normal" limited auction (e.g. 1D-p-1M-2y-?), we play support double. Should I double for support or should double show something else ?

 

2) Without overcall, 2♠ would be Trump Asking Bid. Should it be so also after overcall ?

 

3) Do you you look for slam ? If yes, what is the plan for the next rounds of bidding ?

Support doubles are not used over this type of auction. The issue I have with using a TAB here over a two suited overcall is due to the fact that you should be playing some form of Unusual vs. Unusual or bidding natural here, because the nice part of your hand isn't the spades, it's those great clubs! What happens if you bid a TAB, followed by some denomination of a club bid? That could easily be thought of as a CAB instead of a natural bid!!!

 

I'm bidding two clubs here, followed by a simple raise to spades at my next turn. That warns partner that my trumps aren't great, my hand really is clubs, and that I had a reason NOT to TAB him/her (I.E. a great diamond suit that is no loser).

 

As it states in Precision Today, TABs are easy to learn, but often overused until the partnership either drops them or realizes that there are specific cases when it should be asked.

[Gerben47]

Excellent advice Misho! All this talk of CAB and TAB makes me wary in a competitive auction. It's just like a 2/1 GF situation now.

 

As to what to bid:

 

I don't like bidding 2♥ now for Support with ♣ side suit with this hand. Double shows a PENALTY double of one of their suits which you don't have.

Pass is out with 20 HCP.

 

What's left? 2♣ = I have clubs. Then next round I show my 3-card support for spades.

[csdenmark]

Hi Tiger!

 

If you carefully follow what I now write, you will have less troubles after 1♣ precision and your system after 1♣ and opp intervention will not become above 150 pages like most of top players who play precision.

 

Distributive meaning of rebids of 1♣ precision opener are same as not bidded yet, but with correction for stength. Some exceptions are possible of course, but neeed to keep them few. This mean if responder bid was negative, then 1♣ rebids = overcalls; if responder's bid was gf, then rebids = responses to same opening.

 

Misho

No Misho - this is not right. 1♣ means - I handle this, please help me partner!

 

It is 1♣ who is the captain - who decides what to explore and what not to take notice of.

 

Dwayne - due to above you dont bid 2♣ - it is not for responder to judge on the basis of your distribution. 2♣ would also in your system I think be asking for support as BETA/OMEGA. You dont do such with good options in Major. Partner has at least one of the missing queens - and via CAB you will know if both - then 2 controls or you have a clear slam. Via RKCB you will know which ♥ or ♠

 

Your options are:

- DBL for penalty(slam off and favorable vuln.)

- cue of lowest suit ♦(slam off - we go for game) - CAB

- cue of highest suit ♥(slam invite) - CAB

- 2♠ - TAB

[hrothgar]

Hi Tiger!

 

If you carefully follow what I now write, you will have less troubles after 1♣ precision and your system after 1♣ and opp intervention will not become above 150 pages like most of top players who play precision.

 

Distributive meaning of rebids of 1♣ precision opener are same as not bidded yet, but with correction for stength. Some exceptions are possible of course, but neeed to keep them few. This mean if responder bid was negative, then 1♣ rebids = overcalls; if responder's bid was gf, then rebids = responses to same opening.

 

Misho

No Misho - this is not right. 1♣ means - I handle this, please help me partner!

 

It is 1♣ who is the captain - who decides what to explore and what not to take notice of.

 

Dwayne - due to above you dont bid 2♣ - it is not for responder to judge on the basis of your distribution. 2♣ would also in your system I think be asking for support as BETA/OMEGA. You dont do such with good options in Major. Partner has at least one of the missing queens - and via CAB you will know if both - then 2 controls or you have a clear slam. Via RKCB you will know which ♥ or ♠

 

Your options are:

- DBL for penalty(slam off and favorable vuln.)

- cue of lowest suit ♦(slam off - we go for game) - CAB

- cue of highest suit ♥(slam invite) - CAB

- 2♠ - TAB

Claus, you really need to learn how to separate your opinions from reality.

You continually post dogmatic rules that really don't seem very well grounded.

[Your assertion that artificial systems only use HCPs and don't use distributional poitns was an all time classic, btw]

 

I play relay. I play relay a LOT. As I am sure you know, relay auctions are specifically designed so that the captains and the responder shows...

 

But you know what. When the opponent's interfere in our strong club auctions, we adapt the bidding structure and allow both sides to describe their hands. The reason why: its critical to exchange information quickly before the opponents jack up the bidding.

[Flame]

Distributive meaning of rebids of 1♣ precision opener are same as not bidded yet, but with correction for stength. Some exceptions are possible of course, but neeed to keep them few. This mean if responder bid was negative, then 1♣ rebids = overcalls; if responder's bid was gf, then rebids = responses to same opening.

 

Misho

Can someone explain this for me, best with an example, i think i just dont get it because of my bad english.

[keylime]

I strongly disagree with the fact that the 1♣ bidder is the captain - it's RESPONDER that is captain, especially in comp. bidding situations since responder needs to know certain informational cues from the 1C's yet to be defined hand.

 

I gave this situation to the Mrs. - she was quite emphatic over the fact that 2♠ as a TAB was asking for trouble. Furthermore, a double isn't appropriate either. 2♣ in this auction for is just a natural bid not denying 3 spades. Showing where pard lives is good bridge.

 

For KLP'ers, it would have been 1C-1H*(spades, clubs, 12-14)-1Nt(two suited)-2D* (fit bid of 4+ clubs and 3 spades exactly - 2C here would emphatically deny three spades and be natural).

[mishovnbg]

Distributive meaning of rebids of 1♣ precision opener are same as not bidded yet, but with correction for stength. Some exceptions are possible of course, but neeed to keep them few. This mean if responder bid was negative, then 1♣ rebids = overcalls; if responder's bid was gf, then rebids = responses to same opening.

 

Misho

Can someone explain this for me, best with an example, i think i just dont get it because of my bad english.

Hi flame!

I didn't think about me as "somebody", more likely as "nobody" :(

 

Example with classic overcalls:

 

1♣{16+} - (p) - 1♦{0-7} - (1♠)

?

 

Pass: 16-18 bal or trap pass without GF values

dbl: take out, show distribution, doesn't show more hcp, include any GF hands

1NT: 20-23 bal (depend of 2NT opening)

2♣/♦/♥: 16-21, 5+ cards, NF

2♠ and 2NT: Michaels

3♣/♦/♥: 16-19, 6+ good suit, need 1 trick for game, NF

3♠: ask for stopper with solid suit

3NT: solid suit + stopper in ♠

 

Note: If somebody play NT raptor like me, than above 1NT will be raptor too, unlimited.

 

Example after GF response. Because it depend of your bidding after opps intervention after 1♦/♥/♠/2♣, I will give you responses how we played them with Ben before utilization of "Equality" method of transfer advances in competition. We also agree on Garozzo 2/3 double in forcing situations like this.

 

1♣{16+} - (p) - 1♥{8+, 5+♥} - (2♦)

?

pass: trap pass or short in opps suit, deny fit

dbl: Garozzo 2/3 cards in opps suit double, deny fit

2♥: 3+fit. If you like can be TAB.

2♠: 5+♠

2NT: 4 fit, not min, responses like J2NT

3♣: 5+♣

3♦: ask for stopper with solid suit

3♥: 4 fit with min hand, deny side singleton/void

3♠/4♣: suit+fit playing with Ben, else is splinter

4♦: 4 fit, splinter, min hand

 

 

Misho

[whereagles]

I strongly disagree with the fact that the 1♣ bidder is the captain - it's RESPONDER that is captain, especially in comp. bidding situations since responder needs to know certain informational cues from the 1C's yet to be defined hand.

 

I gave this situation to the Mrs. - she was quite emphatic over the fact that 2♠ as a TAB was asking for trouble. Furthermore, a double isn't appropriate either. 2♣ in this auction for is just a natural bid not denying 3 spades. Showing where pard lives is good bridge.

Sorry, but I think that's very wrong. How can responder take charge if he doesn't know what cards opener is looking for? The strong hand should take charge because it is more independent.

 

I also disagree that 2♠ is asking for trouble. How exactly does it ask for trouble? Because pard may not think it's an asking bid? Well, that only happens if you don't do your homework.

 

Actually, in this hand you're even quite lucky. If you fail to show support now, you'll probably land on your feet anyway because fit is spades and you can outbid them to the 4-level. Interchange pard's first bid and you'll get a headache if it goes

1[cl] -- 1[he] 1N (spades+diams)
2[cl] 4[sp] -- --
??

whereas if you had shown support, maybe pard could have already doubled or bid 5-something to help you.

[csdenmark]

Dwayne - sorry I really thought your KLP system was similar to Meckwell in most areas. Here I understand you have created something complete of your own. I can see why you want to bid 2♣. From earlier statements by you I have got the impression you apply to the standards for captaincy - the unlimited hand asks the limited hand. In strong club systems the exception is the strong hand always ask the weak hand if the strong hand has not limited himself in an NT rebid. Then it will be for the weak to ask or to transfer.

 

---------------------------------

 

Richard in Viking Precision Club SYS is off after interference if you are not yet in a relay sequence - else you complete the sequence in steps - and then system is off. This is special for Viking and contradictionary to standard Precision. Thats why Glenn has emphasized so in his book.

 

----------------------------------

 

Here you have an excellent chance to take advantage from fools. You must use it and not hide yourself behind all of the mysterious private versions confusing yourself most.

 

The principle is:

 

If first opps. bid responder modify if opps interfere that high it will necessary - else you take advantage from the extra options they provide you. If you are in doubt what will be understood you pass for 0-7, and double for 8+,any

 

If first opps passes and partner bids 1♦, and only 1D, you correct your bidding accordingly. Still taking advantage from your extra options.

 

If first opps passes and partner bids anything but 1♦ you proceed and ignore opps except taking taking advantage from your extra options.

[Flame]

Thx misho , you are a somebody ;)

[Ulrich]

Claus,

 

the key to good bidding is that the hand THAT NEEDS TO KNOW is he captain. That MAY OR MAY NOT be the strong C opener. As Misho has already pointed out, and as Richard has already pointed out, there are ways and means of organising this in the auction. In any well designed system, you can show and you can tell, (reminds me of primary school in Liechtenstein). You are far too dogmatic in your views and should read and learn from posts here.

 

Ulrich von Liechtenstein

[Free]

I also don't agree with Claus, the 1♣ opener shouldn't always be captain! If he's minimum, he better shows his hand opposite an unlimited responder in a GF auction. That way, the big opener really limits his hand and he shows shape (hopefully at a low level to start with). Responder can do whatever he wants, and if he's maximum he doesn't have to zoom and stuff like that...