Competitive rebid situation

[whereagles]

Teams game, expert pard, you hold:

 

All vuln, you dealer

 

♠ Kxxxx

♥ x

♦ AQxxxx

♣ x

 

You decided to open, and by agreement the systemic bid is 1♠.

 

You LHO pard RHO

1♠ pass . 2♣ . dbl

2♦ .. 2♥ .. 2♠ .. 3♥

??

 

2♣ = GF

2♠ = honest raise, slammish (3♠ would have been the non slammish bid)

 

Your options here are basically natural, although I should tell you pard is a rather optimistic fellow. Your bid?

[Cascade]

We open the 9-count and partner is the optimist.

 

Oh well 4♦.

[P_Marlowe]

4D, assuming 3NT would be serious.

 

I have an opening bid I am not ashamed of (?!), I have a

diamond control, I show the control, denying club honors,

denying real slam interest.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Gerben42]

4♦ sure. 5 losers is a nice hand now that we have a fit.

[Fluffy]

We are missing 5 keycards, and only one of them is in partner's suit, slam chances seem very slim, still 4♠ looks very pesimistic, I guess I would also bid 4♦. At least it will help partner to make a 5 levle decision.

[Apollo81]

I'd just pass. If partner bids 4♠ then I'm happy to play there, and if he bids 3♠ then I am happy to bid 4♦, confident that I've shown a worse hand than if I had cuebid directly. If partner doubles I will remove to 3♠.

[kenrexford]

I hate these kinds of problems. I mean, you are clearly struggling with what to do. However, to decide what BEST to do, you need more information and more agreements.

 

I mean, first I need to know what partner's likely holdings are, meaning what alternatives did he have other than 2♠ or 3♠. I would like to know what his methods are for 2♣ calls.

 

Then, I want to know more about what my calls mean, what follow-up sequences suggest, and the like.

 

Instead, I have nothing more than that partner has slam interest and that we play "basically natural."

 

That's where 2/1 GF gets ugly for some partnerships. No real agreements, just seat-of-the-pants make-it-up-as-you-go-along nonsense.

 

GP, I have a fit-dependent 5-loser hand. But, I have NO body and am seriously fit-dependent. Therefore, I suppose I pass, because I assume that "fast arrival" is in play. Beyond that, I haven't a clue.

[neilkaz]

How many ♠ does PD show on this sequence? Just 3 or can it be more? ie I am not sure if you play an immediate forcing trump raise or not and if PD has only 3 card support, I am not thrilled with slam chances.

[kenrexford]

How many ♠ does PD show on this sequence? Just 3 or can it be more? ie I am not sure if you play an immediate forcing trump raise or not and if PD has only 3 card support, I am not thrilled with slam chances.

Partner doesn't need that much.

 

♠xxx ♥AQx ♦Kx ♣Axxxx

 

That's a fairly weak hand that offers slam on just two 3-2 splits. Sure, two 3-2 splits is not great to rely upon, but partner has to have extras, we have space to move about, and sniffing cannot hurt.

[JLOL]

How many ♠ does PD show on this sequence? Just 3 or can it be more? ie I am not sure if you play an immediate forcing trump raise or not and if PD has only 3 card support, I am not thrilled with slam chances.

Partner doesn't need that much.

 

♠xxx ♥AQx ♦Kx ♣Axxxx

 

That's a fairly weak hand that offers slam on just two 3-2 splits. Sure, two 3-2 splits is not great to rely upon, but partner has to have extras, we have space to move about, and sniffing cannot hurt.

LOL

[whereagles]

Ken:

 

I need to know what partner's likely holdings are, meaning what alternatives did he have other than 2♠ or 3♠. I would like to know what his methods are for 2♣ calls.

 

Over 2♥ pard could have bid

 

2♠ = as said, slam interest, usually with 5 card club and 3+ spades.

2NT = usually more than a min, asks opener to complete his hand description.

3♣ = 6 cards, normally no slam interest (would've bid 2NT in that case).

3♦ = shapely 4 card raise

3♥ = asking for a stop

3♠ = honest raise, usually 11-14 hcp

3NT = very NT-oriented hand, with stopper and min

4m = natural, slammish

4♥ = not explicitly discussed, but would be taken as splinter in supp of diams

4♠ = picture bid

4NT = ye olde RKCB spades

5m = natural, poor controls

5♥ = voidwood for diamonds

5♠ = asking for a heart control to play 6

5NT = undiscussed

6♣+ = natural. Opener is allowed to raise with fit + unexpected nr. of aces.

 

 

Then, I want to know more about what my calls mean, what follow-up sequences suggest, and the like.

 

3♠ = unremarkable hand, no slam interest (leaves space for resp to keep trying at a low level)

3NT = strong trumps, slam interest (ok, so this one wasn't so "natural")

4♣ = control (1st or 2nd)

4♦ = natural, normally shapely with extras

4♥ = control

4♠ = minimum hand, usually with bad controls

4NT = ye olde

5♣+ = very unlikely bids that are undiscussed, hence are natural

 

 

Instead, I have nothing more than that partner has slam interest and that we play "basically natural."

 

And, as you see, it's really all natural <_<

[whereagles]

How many ♠ does PD show on this sequence? Just 3 or can it be more? ie I am not sure if you play an immediate forcing trump raise or not and if PD has only 3 card support, I am not thrilled with slam chances.

3+ spades.

 

With 3 spades and a slammish hand, the start is a 2/1.

 

With 4 spades and a slammish hand the start is usually 1M-2NT, unless one has 5 cards in a good side suit (in which case the start is again a 2/1).

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

 

3♠ = unremarkable hand, no slam interest (leaves space for resp to keep trying at a low level)

3NT = strong trumps, slam interest (ok, so this one wasn't so "natural")

4♣ = control (1st or 2nd)

4♦ = natural, normally shapely with extras

<snip>

This means 4D now showes extras?

I certainly have the shape, but I doubt that the shape is sufficient

to claim we have extras.

 

In this case I would say, you are basically forced to bid 3S, not that

your hand is unremarable, but at one point in time you should start

limiting your hand, and 4D does not limit the hand.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[kenrexford]

How many ♠ does PD show on this sequence? Just 3 or can it be more? ie I am not sure if you play an immediate forcing trump raise or not and if PD has only 3 card support, I am not thrilled with slam chances.

Partner doesn't need that much.

 

♠xxx ♥AQx ♦Kx ♣Axxxx

 

That's a fairly weak hand that offers slam on just two 3-2 splits. Sure, two 3-2 splits is not great to rely upon, but partner has to have extras, we have space to move about, and sniffing cannot hurt.

LOL

Oops! I have the major honors reversed.

 

I join the LOL! <_<

[whereagles]

This means 4D now showes extras?

Normally, yes. However, when opps start bidding, the bid becomes more tactical due to the need to accurately decide over a possible 5 level save.

[whereagles]

Thanks all. Hands were

 

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=saqjxhaxdktxcajtx&s=skxxxxhxdaqxxxxcx]133|200|Scoring: IMP

1♠ pass 2♣ dbl

2♦ 2♥ .. 2♠ . 3♥

??[/hv]

Pard's hand was "supposed" to be 1 club more and 1 spade less (1♠-2NT was the system bid, not 2♣), but ok. I was South and decided to bid 4♠, due to the underpar opener, weakish trumps and an overbidder pard :)

 

In retrospect I think 4♦ would have been a better bid, despite the minimum. It's better to be descriptive when pard is strong (even if he's optimistic.. lol).

 

Over 4♠ pard simply bid 6. Yes, he forgot to bid 4NT. If he had bid that, the grand could still have been salvaged, as it would have gone

 

(...) 4NT

5♥ 5NT

6♦ 7♠

 

5NT = all keys are there. Got any extras or a trick source?

6♦ = got some diamond length, but need a filler.

7♠ = got that filler.

 

Thx again.

[se12sam]

1. I'd open the south hand with 1♦. I believe all 6-5 or 7-5 (longer minor+ 5-card major) bid better when opened 1m. And I recall reading articles that recommended opening the minor (Danny Kleinman's book, possibly?)

 

2. What if there is a diamond opening lead? After this sequence, East does not need a Lightner dbl (which allows you into a cold 7NT) to secure a ruff. A 4-0 split (West 4-card) though against odds is still probably a 2+% chance.

[kenrexford]

2. What if there is a diamond opening lead? After this sequence, East does not need a Lightner dbl (which allows you into a cold 7NT) to secure a ruff. A 4-0 split (West 4-card) though against odds is still probably a 2+% chance.

I hate bidding 98% grands. Just not enough upside.

[se12sam]

2. What if there is a diamond opening lead? After this sequence, East does not need a Lightner dbl (which allows you into a cold 7NT) to secure a ruff. A 4-0 split (West 4-card) though against odds is still probably a 2+% chance.

I hate bidding 98% grands. Just not enough upside.

Especially when 7NT is 100%, and the bidding has discovered 13 cold tricks

[kenrexford]

2. What if there is a diamond opening lead? After this sequence, East does not need a Lightner dbl (which allows you into a cold 7NT) to secure a ruff. A 4-0 split (West 4-card) though against odds is still probably a 2+% chance.

I hate bidding 98% grands. Just not enough upside.

Especially when 7NT is 100%, and the bidding has discovered 13 cold tricks

How is 7NT a 100% contract?

 

Spades provide 5 tricks for sure.

Hearts produce one trick for sure. So far, 6.

Clubs produce one trick for sure. Now up to 7.

 

So, you need 6 tricks from diamonds. If you don't take the hook as your first play in diamonds, which is about a 50-50 play, then you cannot handle either 4-0 split, if an "x" really means an "x." Plus, when you DO go down, you may go down a lot.

 

If dummy held AQ8xxx or better, 7NT would be equally likely to make as 7♠, in that only one void leads to the set. The gain of the NT contract may or may not offset the loss of the possible multiple-trick set.

 

EDIT: Wait. In 7NT you can actually pick up one 4-0 split. Missed that. So, I suppose both contracts are equally likely to fail, with 7NT yielding a better reward at a greater loss when set. If dummy had AQ8xxx, then 7NT would, in fact, be cold.