Which bid should be ambigous?

[jdonn]

Josh, you seem to imply that with 4-card ♦ support you would never want to play 3NT?

It seems unlikely if I couldn't bid it myself, especially if it can't be distinguished from those other shapes at the decision point. But even if you toss in a few of those it doesn't change my mind.

[mike777]

Of course 2/1 GF makes it easier to determine which bids are forcing, but sometimes it is complicated to sort out partner's strength, and the catch-all 2M rebid makes it difficult to sort out opener's shape.

 

Yesterday we had this auction:

1♠-2♣

2♠-3♠

4♣-4NT

5♣-6♠

 

Opener (p) has a 5323 16-count which he didn't want to open 1NT because of the good spade suit (headed by AKQ I think), I had a 3343 15-count. We landed on our feet but I have questions about most of the bids:

2♣: I am not sure if there is an "expert standard" for 3343.

2♠: I expected six spades here, maybe a balanced or black twosuiter 12-14 (most people include those in the 2♠ rebid) but not a balanced 16.

3♠: Could this be on a doubleton? If so, now 3NT from opener could be an offer to play, but since both hands are unlimited it would also be nice to have 3NT as (non)serious.

4♣: I took this as a cue but I wondered if it shouldn't be natural, assuming that a opener would rebid 2♠ with a minimum hand with 5-5 blacks?

4NT: So which suit is trump here? If we play 6-king blackwood, does it apply here? If the 4♣ cue could be based on shortness it shouldn't, and even if he has Kx or AK, ♣K my not be an essential card.

5♣: I assumed he would have signed off in 4♠ with zero so this must be 3! However, since with extras and ♠AKQ he would not have bid 2♠ (I thought) I gave up on 7.

6♠: Dunno why I didn't bid 6NT since I had AQ in both red suits. Maybe I would if I had been more confident about the auction.

 

I know a more established partnership would not have these problems (at least not all of them), and also it would have helped if I had more general knowledge of 2/1. My point is just that it is not always a particularly easy system to use.

I agree that playing rebids of 2major as a catchall does seem to make life more difficult. OTOH this seems to be what the vast majority play.

 

 

I found life simplier with 2s=6 spades and now 3s=slam try in spades.

That means new suit second bids do not promise extras which I just do not find an issue. I assume responder will almost always be the stronger hand(14+) and opener has some 11-13 minimum.

 

Granted those were not the conditions in the OP and I was a 4d bidder in the OP.

[the hog]

Of course 2/1 GF makes it easier to determine which bids are forcing, but sometimes it is complicated to sort out partner's strength, and the catch-all 2M rebid makes it difficult to sort out opener's shape.

 

Yesterday we had this auction:

1♠-2♣

2♠-3♠

4♣-4NT

5♣-6♠

 

Opener (p) has a 5323 16-count which he didn't want to open 1NT because of the good spade suit (headed by AKQ I think), I had a 3343 15-count. We landed on our feet but I have questions about most of the bids:

2♣: I am not sure if there is an "expert standard" for 3343.

2♠: I expected six spades here, maybe a balanced or black twosuiter 12-14 (most people include those in the 2♠ rebid) but not a balanced 16.

3♠: Could this be on a doubleton? If so, now 3NT from opener could be an offer to play, but since both hands are unlimited it would also be nice to have 3NT as (non)serious.

4♣: I took this as a cue but I wondered if it shouldn't be natural, assuming that a opener would rebid 2♠ with a minimum hand with 5-5 blacks?

4NT: So which suit is trump here? If we play 6-king blackwood, does it apply here? If the 4♣ cue could be based on shortness it shouldn't, and even if he has Kx or AK, ♣K my not be an essential card.

5♣: I assumed he would have signed off in 4♠ with zero so this must be 3! However, since with extras and ♠AKQ he would not have bid 2♠ (I thought) I gave up on 7.

6♠: Dunno why I didn't bid 6NT since I had AQ in both red suits. Maybe I would if I had been more confident about the auction.

 

I know a more established partnership would not have these problems (at least not all of them), and also it would have helped if I had more general knowledge of 2/1. My point is just that it is not always a particularly easy system to use.

I agree that playing rebids of 2major as a catchall does seem to make life more difficult. OTOH this seems to be what the vast majority play.

 

 

I found life simplier with 2s=6 spades and now 3s=slam try in spades.

That means new suit second bids do not promise extras which I just do not find an issue. I assume responder will almost always be the stronger hand(14+) and opener has some 11-13 minimum.

 

Granted those were not the conditions in the OP and I was a 4d bidder in the OP.

Mike, I disagree strongly with your contention that an omnibus Major rebid makes life difficult. The problem Helene alluded to was brought abouth wholly and solely by her partner's failure to open 1NT on a 1NT hand - a 5332 16 count!

 

I have played the omnibus rebid whenever I played 2/1 or a variant and have not had any problems. On the other hand, when you play with someone who bids in the following manner:

1H 2C 2S, where 2S shows shape, but no extra values, then you have problems. The only way to sort out relative strengths, (for most players), is to take a trip down hesitation road.

[mike777]

Of course 2/1 GF makes it easier to determine which bids are forcing, but sometimes it is complicated to sort out partner's strength, and the catch-all 2M rebid makes it difficult to sort out opener's shape.

 

Yesterday we had this auction:

1♠-2♣

2♠-3♠

4♣-4NT

5♣-6♠

 

Opener (p) has a 5323 16-count which he didn't want to open 1NT because of the good spade suit (headed by AKQ I think), I had a 3343 15-count. We landed on our feet but I have questions about most of the bids:

2♣: I am not sure if there is an "expert standard" for 3343.

2♠: I expected six spades here, maybe a balanced or black twosuiter 12-14 (most people include those in the 2♠ rebid) but not a balanced 16.

3♠: Could this be on a doubleton? If so, now 3NT from opener could be an offer to play, but since both hands are unlimited it would also be nice to have 3NT as (non)serious.

4♣: I took this as a cue but I wondered if it shouldn't be natural, assuming that a opener would rebid 2♠ with a minimum hand with 5-5 blacks?

4NT: So which suit is trump here? If we play 6-king blackwood, does it apply here? If the 4♣ cue could be based on shortness it shouldn't, and even if he has Kx or AK, ♣K my not be an essential card.

5♣: I assumed he would have signed off in 4♠ with zero so this must be 3! However, since with extras and ♠AKQ he would not have bid 2♠ (I thought) I gave up on 7.

6♠: Dunno why I didn't bid 6NT since I had AQ in both red suits. Maybe I would if I had been more confident about the auction.

 

I know a more established partnership would not have these problems (at least not all of them), and also it would have helped if I had more general knowledge of 2/1. My point is just that it is not always a particularly easy system to use.

I agree that playing rebids of 2major as a catchall does seem to make life more difficult. OTOH this seems to be what the vast majority play.

 

 

I found life simplier with 2s=6 spades and now 3s=slam try in spades.

That means new suit second bids do not promise extras which I just do not find an issue. I assume responder will almost always be the stronger hand(14+) and opener has some 11-13 minimum.

 

Granted those were not the conditions in the OP and I was a 4d bidder in the OP.

Mike, I disagree strongly with your contention that an omnibus Major rebid makes life difficult. The problem Helene alluded to was brought abouth wholly and solely by her partner's failure to open 1NT on a 1NT hand - a 5332 16 count!

 

I have played the omnibus rebid whenever I played 2/1 or a variant and have not had any problems. On the other hand, when you play with someone who bids in the following manner:

1H 2C 2S, where 2S shows shape, but no extra values, then you have problems. The only way to sort out relative strengths, (for most players), is to take a trip down hesitation road.

Fair enough and as I posted that is the style most play.

 

I just seem to have more issues with 1s=2c=2s being an omnibus major compared with 1h=2c=2s....again I just assume natural and opener has 11-13 and bid on.

So:

3h=slam try in h

3s=slam try in s

3c=natural, game force and 6c.

3d=4sf may or maynot have real d

2nt=natural and game forcing.

 

Of course with the given OP hand I am stuck bidding 1nt over 1s.

With most 5332 16 count hands I would open 1 major also but given OP conditions I would strain to open 1nt if I had no small xx.

[hanp]

omnibus

 

1 : a usually automotive public vehicle designed to carry a large number of passengers : bus

2 : a book containing reprints of a number of works

[mike777]

omnibus

 

1 : a usually automotive public vehicle designed to carry a large number of passengers : bus

2 : a book containing reprints of a number of works

omnibus. of, relating to, or providing for many things at once. :D