Any influence on your responese after rho's bidl?

[cnszsun]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=st9653hajtd96c976]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

bidding:

1♣-(1♦)-?

Will you bid 1♠? Without rho's 1♦, will you make the same decision?

Do I need more strength and better suit to make a one level response after RHO's overcall?

[inquiry]

I use to pass these things, so that my "free bids" showed more. The logic seemed sound at the time. You keep the bidding open for partner with weak hands in case he has a monster. Here you RHO has done that for you.

 

Over the years, I came to learn that if you don't show your values when you have the chance at the one level, you usually regret it when you have to make a decision to balance or not at a higher level. This hand is worth a bid, and the best time to do it is now. Bid your 1♠ (or if you play with Misho 1♥ showing ♠'s, but that is another story). Now you are out of the auction.

 

BTW, this is very close decision. Change ♥AJT to ♥AT9 and I would be much less sure the free bid is the winning call in the long run.

 

Ben

[luis]

1s both times.

[mishovnbg]

Hi Michael!

The reason why 1♠ bid is good in both cases is because miracle for game is more important than best score. If you find fit ♠ you will have 2 more tricks in ♠ (4th and 5th) and your strength is even above min!

Misho

[Free]

Yes, always 1♠. You don't always need 6 HCP to bid imo, certainly with the mastersuit!

[Trpltrbl]

Pass first time, and if no overcall I would bid 1♠.

 

Mike :D

[Polish Goalie]

Would I have bid 1♠ without the overcall? Absolutely.

WIll I bid 1♠ after the overcall? Absolutely.

 

I don't need the ♥ Jack either time. I have Spades; it pays to bid, particularly when you have Spades. Passing and backing in is dangerous; you may (and often are against competent opponents) faced with a decision at the 3 or even 4 level on your next turn. Bidding now and hearing what partner has to say is invaluable in making a later decision.

[dogsbreath]

Definitely 1S ..at worst better to bid now than be tempted back in later.

Rgds Dog :D

 

 

furnulum pani nolo

[whereagles]

Playing 2/1 there's not much need to bid 1♠ here. Still, I think most of the times I'd venture bidding it. Depends a bit on opponents and state of the match.

 

The need to bid 1♠ is more pressing opposite, say, a precision 1♦. If you pass now, a limited opener is not likely to bid again unless he has something special.

[the hog]

1S. Get in while the going is good. Do not understand the above comment at all.

[cnszsun]

Thanks all for your replies. At table, i bid 1♠ without much hesitation, the reason behind is just as many have indicated here: I may have to make a decision at higher level later if i don't do it now. But, my pd later said i should not bid a free bid with such a lousy hand and lousy suit. He is a good player on BBO, so i fear i may have a wrong understanding about "free bid". Now my mind is much clear. Thx again.

[JRG]

My experience is exactly the same as Ben's.

 

We used to pass, because the "free bid" showed some extras. We have all learnt that to do so gets you shut out of the auction. If you would have responded and can still make the same bid, then do so.

[the hog]

I may be wrong about this, as ideas may differ in different countries, but basically here we believe that when you have a bid to make, you make it. That means bidding 1S like here, or raising partner with minimum hands. Here in Oz the concept of "free" bid showing extras has largely died out. You make the most descriptive bid possible in showing a suit or in raising partner. This is a bidders game after all.

 

Cheers

Ron

[Trpltrbl]

It is a bidders game but most of you forget Pass is a bid too. And I highly doubt my next decision is at 3 or 4 level.

I have not run into problems yet, with making these decisions.

 

Mike :D

[Cascade]

I used to pass these too.

 

Now I bid one spade without the 5th spade.

[1eyedjack]

Thanks all for your replies. At table, i bid 1♠ without much hesitation, the reason behind is just as many have indicated here: I may have to make a decision at higher level later if i don't do it now. But, my pd later said i should not bid a free bid with such a lousy hand and lousy suit. He is a good player on BBO, so i fear i may have a wrong understanding about "free bid". Now my mind is much clear. Thx again.

I doubt that it will make much difference which you choose between an initial pass and 1♠ (and the same applies in uncontested!). The existence of partnership agreement on the minimum requirement is more important than the specifics of the agreement. Next time with that partner I would pass, because that is what he expects.

[inquiry]

Michael fear not, everyone makes mistakes. This time, the mistake wasn't yours, necessarily. The free bid shows substantial values is not horrible bridge, just not adhered to much any more. I suspect the mistake here was your expert partner's. He was wearing some very rose colored glasses. Here is the hand in question...

 

[hv=d=w&v=n&n=sq2hkqdq73cakt542&w=saj7h8754dkj2cq83&e=sk84h9632dat854cj&s=st9653hajtd96c976]399|300|Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 

 Pass  1♣    1♦    1♠

 2♦    3♣    Pass  Pass

 3♦    4♣    Pass  Pass

 Dbl   Pass  4♦    Pass

 Pass  4♠    Pass  Pass

 Dbl   Pass  Pass  Pass

 

[/hv]

 

If you pass, your side is out of the auction probably for ever. In addition. When you show up with the ♥AJ, and presumably long spades your partner will be played for the doubleton ♠Q because you didn't bid. As it is, declearer will surely misguess ♠ and likely misguess ♦ if they play in ♦.

 

It is also worth noting, that you PASSED 3♣, a very forward going bid by your partner. Your opponents doubled his 4♣ for penalty (probably down one) with correct restricted choice guess. But what in the world was he doing bidding 4♠? Sure by "old fashion" free bid style your hand was light, but even opposite a sound free bid 1♠, his hand is unsuited for a 4♠ bid. The road to riches here is paved in golden double. Even double dummy, 4♦ has no chance, as it has to lose 3♥ and a ♣, and i would not be surprised to see a ♠ come your way, as well as maybe a ♦. So, rack up +300 at a realistic minumum, and a likely +500.

 

Ben

[whereagles]

Hog: the point is as follows.

 

If you're playing 2/1, pard can still be strong enough to find another bid if you pass now. Then you'll have a second chance to show your spades. Playing precision, pard won't have a strong hand, so it's unlikely your side will get to bid again, thus the more urgent it is to make now a bid for the competition.

[the hog]

The above is illogical. Regardless of what system you play, if you have a bid, make it. How else can opener distinguish between

Txxxx

AJT

xxx

xx

 

and

xxxx

xx

xxx

xxxx

[Fluffy]

Bidding at level 1 after overcall shows exactly the same than when they didn´t bid, in my opinon. (At least a hand that is gonna play game opposite a 19 HCP balanced)

 

That doesn´t mean you will bid the same if they bid, in the example I would bid 1♠ over 1♦, but pass if RHO passed. But anyway is a close decision, ,so I wouldn´t criticice any of the choices.

[whereagles]

The above is illogical. Regardless of what system you play, if you have a bid, make it. How else can opener distinguish between

Txxxx

AJT

xxx

xx

 

and

xxxx

xx

xxx

xxxx

It's actually very logical :(

 

In precision, opener doesn't need to distinguish between the two case you showed. You're outgunned anyway, so finding a suit is all that matters. In 2/1 there may be a need to distinguish the two if opener has 19-20 points, but in that case you can always, jump, cue-bid later (or a good-bad 2NT if you play that).

 

What your feeling for the game is telling you when you say "if you have a bid, you make it", is that it is more important to show your distribution than your strenght, and therefore you feel an urge to bid 1♠ on that hand. Mind you, in a random situation I would bid 1♠ as well. I would require something special attached to the situation to pass. However, if I had

 

Txxxx

KJT

xxx

xx

 

I would definitely pass in most 2/1 situations, but bid in precision.

[mishovnbg]

Thanks all for your replies. At table, i bid 1♠ without much hesitation, the reason behind is just as many have indicated here: I may have to make a decision at higher level later if i don't do it now. But, my pd later said i should not bid a free bid with such a lousy hand and lousy suit. He is a good player on BBO, so i fear i may have a wrong understanding about "free bid". Now my mind is much clear. Thx again.

I doubt that it will make much difference which you choose between an initial pass and 1♠ (and the same applies in uncontested!). The existence of partnership agreement on the minimum requirement is more important than the specifics of the agreement. Next time with that partner I would pass, because that is what he expects.

This is only way of wining, totaly argee with you, monocled one. Try to play what your partner like in all possible in your opinion cases. Insist to your own methods only when partner's one is complete unacceptible for you. The best system you can play is which your partner know and like.

Misho

[arrows]

some other thought,

I would make a call, but maybe I consider a negative double more descriptive and flexible.

[luke warm]

a negative double, strangely enough, might tend to show even more values... again, this depends on the partnership's understandings... this is a competitive auction and lott should apply... agree with ben, 4S made no sense.. even if your free bid promised 5 and the neg x 4 you only have 7 between you...

 

a good example of why shep recommends cooperative doubles in these cases.. of course the 1S bid might have led p to make a double expecting more from you, but there you go

 

speaking of the cooperative double here, your pass of 4D says "i have my bid but nothing extra" or maybe even "i bid but now i wish i hadn't"... in either case, partner can only bid on with 1) greater strength or 2) for some distributional reason... imo, so should 1) pass, promising what his bids show or 2) double, which says "i have extra for my bidding to date"... while x might work for him, i'd be tempted to pass 4D

Edited June 15, 2004 by luke warm

[Free]

Michael fear not, everyone makes mistakes. This time, the mistake wasn't yours, necessarily. The free bid shows substantial values is not horrible bridge, just not adhered to much any more. I suspect the mistake here was your expert partner's. He was wearing some very rose colored glasses. Here is the hand in question...

 

[hv=d=w&v=n&n=sq2hkqdq73cakt542&w=saj7h8754dkj2cq83&e=sk84h9632dat854cj&s=st9653hajtd96c976]399|300|Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 

 Pass  1♣    1♦    1♠

 2♦    3♣    Pass  Pass

 3♦    4♣    Pass  Pass

 Dbl   Pass  4♦    Pass

 Pass  4♠    Pass  Pass

 Dbl   Pass  Pass  Pass

 

[/hv]

 

If you pass, your side is out of the auction probably for ever. In addition. When you show up with the ♥AJ, and presumably long spades your partner will be played for the doubleton ♠Q because you didn't bid. As it is, declearer will surely misguess ♠ and likely misguess ♦ if they play in ♦.

 

It is also worth noting, that you PASSED 3♣, a very forward going bid by your partner. Your opponents doubled his 4♣ for penalty (probably down one) with correct restricted choice guess. But what in the world was he doing bidding 4♠? Sure by "old fashion" free bid style your hand was light, but even opposite a sound free bid 1♠, his hand is unsuited for a 4♠ bid. The road to riches here is paved in golden double. Even double dummy, 4♦ has no chance, as it has to lose 3♥ and a ♣, and i would not be surprised to see a ♠ come your way, as well as maybe a ♦. So, rack up +300 at a realistic minumum, and a likely +500.

 

Ben

This is nut bidding from North! 3♣ ok, 4♣ willing to push them one higher but they Dbl and run away! 4♠ suicide ofcourse, playing with a 5-2 at 4-level and losing values in both ♥ and ♦, just let them play 4♦. They'll never score bigtime, and if they go down, at least you get some points, more than you diserve...

 

If you think you're maximum with such hand, you need to do something about your hand evaluation:

- ♥KQ is a lost Q, loses 1 trick

- ♦Qxx is a lost Q and loses 2-3 tricks

- ♠Qx has some value, however you're playing in a 5-2 fit, and chances are quite big trumps are split 4-2, losing at least 1 trick, possibly 2

- ♣ are solid, no losers usually

So bidding 4♠ is just asking to get doubled and go down at least 2. If I may choose between letting opps play 4♦ +3 max or play myself doubled -2, my choice is made quite quick.

 

Btw, partner sure doesn't have a 6 card ♠, otherwise he'd eiter jump to 2♠ right away with a weak hand, or bid 3♠ after your 3♣ with a nice hand.