Unusual situation

[ArtK78]

[hv=d=e&v=b&s=skxhxdaxxcakqjxxx]133|100|Scoring: MP

(2♣) - ?[/hv]

 

The 2♣ opener on your right is the classic strong Standard American 2♣ opening bid.

 

Any suggestions?

[helene_t]

A natural 2NT would be nice, unfortunately we don't play that. 3NT would be unusual as well.

 

I think I just bid 3♣.

[mtvesuvius]

wow! 3♣ for me... Partner cannot have much, and I have a feeling RHO opened 2♣ on a long ♥ suit and like 19-20 HCP...

[rogerclee]

4♣, give your opponents a problem. It's true that if RHO is strong with hearts he won't have a problem, but that is a little presumptuous, I would say it's very likely that they have some reasonable heart fit but that it will be unclear to get there after 4♣.

 

I don't understand 3♣, which is unlikely to give them a problem, or 5♣, which is just begging to go for 800.

[gnasher]

For RHO to have a 2♣ opening missing so many high cards, he's likely to have a six-card major.

 

If we bid 3♣ or 4♣, we won't inconvenience them in the slightest: LHO will pass or double, and RHO will bid four of his major, which is what he planned to do anyway. Then we'll have to decide whether to have another go. We might double 4♥ for takeout, hoping that partner will leave it in with a trump trick or short clubs. If we do end up at the five level, they're likely to do the right thing, having exchanged a reasonable amount of information.

 

The alternative is to bid 5♣ immediately. That might be 500 against a game that's going down because ♠K is wrong or because there's an unexpected heart loser. On the other hand, RHO might be reluctant to defend without having shown his major. I'd love to hear them bid 5♥.

 

I bid 5♣, with trepidation.

[Phil]

I would bet RHO has a minimum 2♣ opener with a lot of spades or a lot of hearts. 5♣ creates a nasty guess especially at MPs, where RHO might need to bid 5M just to stay even with the field. And if I get doubled, I'm not 800 yet. Something slightly useful in pard's hand could easily hold this to -1/-2.

 

Pard will rarely know what to do over 4♣, so I think I'm giving myself the last guess with that choice.

[skjaeran]

I'll go all the way and bid 5♣. I don't think anything less will inconvenience opps much.

[PFormaini]

SInce 2♣ is an absolute force and you have no idea how the cards lie at the moment, why bid at all?

 

I PASS and wait for more bidding, in order to have a better idea what tactic I should use. (Al Roth was a major proponent of this wait-listen-then-act strategy.)

 

If the opponents end up in 4♥, I can always take the sac later. If they end up in a high ♠ contract, I don;t want to declare - unless I have rason to think RHO is void in clubs - then I might want to reconsider.

 

But at the moment - when I know precisely NOTHING about the opponents hands and the bidding cannot die, what is the rush to make a decision that can better be made once I have mor einformation?

[CSGibson]

SInce 2♣ is an absolute force and you have no idea how the cards lie at the moment, why bid at all?

 

I PASS and wait for more bidding, in order to have a better idea what tactic I should use. (Al Roth was a major proponent of this wait-listen-then-act strategy.)

 

If the opponents end up in 4♥, I can always take the sac later. If they end up in a high ♠ contract, I don;t want to declare - unless I have rason to think RHO is void in clubs - then I might want to reconsider.

 

But at the moment - when I know precisely NOTHING about the opponents hands and the bidding cannot die, what is the rush to make a decision that can better be made once I have mor einformation?

I disagree with this philosophy strongly (and strongly might be an underbid here). It's true that if you wait, you'll have a better idea of the opponents hands. Unfortunately, the opponents will as well, and will be able to intelligently decide whether to bid 4 of the major, X, or even stop below game if it's right. If you put pressure on the opponents, however, then they can't exchange enough information to make intelligent decisions. I think it's right to make bids that screw with opponents strong auctions if the situation arises, since the weakness of those auctions is that you've already taken up one round of bidding room without showing any part of your shape, and have less flexibility to decide what to do.

 

Seriously, if you bid 5 clubs, what is RHO to do with his AQJTx AKQJT KQJ - hand? I know I'd bid 6 clubs, personally. Whoops, down 1 for a big gain. Or AQJ AKQxxxx KQ x. Is that an automatic double, or would RHO be tempted to bid 5 hearts?

 

Putting pressure on opponents is a big-time winner. Make them guess as often as possible, and they'll guess wrong some portion of the time. This is even easier at IMPs, where the expected gain when they guess wrong is way more than the probable loss on the hand when they guess right.

[MFA]

I agree with the 5♣ bidders. Looks like the right pressure bid here.

[jdonn]

Also 5♣. Not only is RHO extremely likely to have a 6 card major here, but much more likely than usual to even have a 7 or 8 card major. On those hands he is almost certain to bid his major on the 5 level if he has to, so why not make him?

 

The other advantage is if the opponents are up to something fishy, I will at least be in game instead of dropped in 4♣.

[PFormaini]

I agree with the 5♣ bidders. Looks like the right pressure bid here.

Your example hands are irrelevant, since 2♣ opener's PARTNER will DOUBLE (to show no values and a desire to defend) - and the opener will know whether to sit or go forward, knowing that partner has nothing to offer in the way of high cards.

 

It is so typical of most players to day to take action WHEN THERE IS NO REASON TO DO SO - knowing little or nothing about the hand as a whole. And completely ignoring strategy.

 

And how sad that you and your partner miss a cold 3NT game when he happens to hold Q J x♥ and Q x♦. Whereas my partner and I get there easily. I pass - LHO bids 2♦ (of ocurse), opener bids 2♥ - and I now bid 3♥ - asking partner to bid 3NT if he has a heart stopper. Otherwise he bids 3♠ and I can retire to 4♣ and lost nothing.

 

In short - why would I want to preempt partner when there is a chance that we not only have a game - but a SLAM? Give opener A Q J 10 x x♠ A K Q J x x ♥ x ♦ - and partner ♠ x x ♥ x x x ♦ K Q x x x ♣ x x?

 

In short - why take such final and irrevocable action when not only might it be YOUR hand for anything right up to 6 clubs - but you have good defense against spades or diamonds and enough to produce a plus score for your own side, depending on the layout and the opponent's actions?

 

As Roth (who has won more national championships than almost anyone else living) would say - "Sheesh!" :D

 

THIS is a hand I would bid 5♣ over a 2♣ opening with:

 

♠ x x

♥ void

♦ x x

♣ K Q J 10 9 7 6 4 3

 

LIttle or no defense. Completely disruptive to opponents. LIttle or no chance of game/slam our way.

[CSGibson]

As Roth (who has won more national championships than almost anyone else living) would say - "Sheesh!" :D

Frankly, I don't care what you think a dead bridge player would say. If you knew what Al Roth would do, and did it in all situations, then I probably would have heard of you winning championships. Since I haven't, then I'm assuming that you don't actually know what Roth would do. I respect that you have bridge logic for your action. I disagree with your action but that's what makes the game interesting.

 

This is not a rip on you specifically, but anyone who presumes they know what a great bridge player would do without actually consulting the bridge player. That is the worst form of arguement, especially when the player is no longer alive to refute your possibly inaccurate portrayal of their opinion.

[PFormaini]

CG:

 

I gotcha. Arguing bridge is like fine cooking. Either you put everything you;ve got into it or else it's mediocre and boring. :D

 

Actually, I can only go by what Mr. Roth wrote and said in print. And he was quite adamant about preempting partner and making decisions without any information whatsoever. And he would NEVER make a preemptive bid on a hand that might offer play for slam in his own direction. (Sorry for my examples above - I thought South was VOID in hearts. My bad.)

 

Still - I can see some merit in 5♣ immediately. :) You might catch partner with just enough to make a game and simultaneously deprive RHO of the chance to find his own ultimate contract. But somehow I don;t think you are going to hear him pass without having mentioned his best suit. And I have a sneaking suspicion it's going to be ♥.

 

That's the thing about 2 strong hands duking it out. In the end it is usually a completely blind guess.

 

But I simply want to know more about the opposing hands before I commit. Especially at IMPS - where a high-level mistake can cost a LOT of IMPS.

[Old York]

Immediate 5♣

 

I would be quite happy with -200 or -500 on this hand, looks like oppo have an easy game at least

My main concern is that most would not open 2♣ with so many controls missing, so opener has a very distributional hand, possibly with Club void and both majors

 

At matchpoints, I expect most to be in 5♣x anyway

 

Tony

[Phil]

Only intermediates pass with hands like this. You'll seldom find out anything useful after a round of bidding, and you've given the opponents all the room they need to make better decisions.

 

Bidding like this is so 1978.

[gwnn]

But somehow I don;t think you are going to hear him pass without having mentioned his best suit. And I have a sneaking suspicion it's going to be ♥.

But???

 

Is RHO bidding 5♥ really a bad thing?

[MFA]

I agree with the 5♣ bidders. Looks like the right pressure bid here.

Your example hands are irrelevant, since 2♣ opener's PARTNER will DOUBLE (to show no values and a desire to defend) - and the opener will know whether to sit or go forward, knowing that partner has nothing to offer in the way of high cards.

 

It is so typical of most players to day to take action WHEN THERE IS NO REASON TO DO SO - knowing little or nothing about the hand as a whole. And completely ignoring strategy.

...

I'm sorry but I find your advice terrible and clearly losing bridge.

 

Just curious about one thing. What exactly are you expecting to learn by passing?

It takes no Einstein to figure that opener most likely will drive to 4M and then we will be there again.

 

(Your delicate probe-for-3NT-auction has nothing to do with reality. The opponents are in a gameforcing auction unless opener has 22+ bal).

[PFormaini]

MFA:

 

Ah - I see. You are willing to do all the bidding for your 'partnership' by yourself - knowing nothing of either LHO or partner's hands - and willing to second-guess RHO as well and assume that you know - with absolutely no information whatsoever - what the optimum bid is and what RHO holds.

 

I envy you.

 

I mean - it's completely obvious that RHO holds

 

[sE]A Q J 10 9 x

♥A K Q J x x x

♦-

♣-

 

unless, of course, he holds:

 

[sE]A Q x x

♥A K

♦K Q J 10 9 8 6 5 4

♣ -

 

or:

 

[sE]A

♥A K 10 x x x x

♦K Q J 10 9

♣

 

or:

 

[sE]O J 10 9 8 7 6

♥A

♦K Q J 10 9

♣-

 

In short - you know nothing of who can make what - and are willing to throw away a potential PLUS score for your side in favor of "I know best - deal with it partner." 'preemptive' bid on a potnetial game or SLAM hand your way.

 

Sorry - I prefer a partner - not a commando.

 

I gave my example of a proper 5♣ bid above. 7-9 semi-solid clubs and NOTHING ELSE. THAt is what a preempt is. NOT an 8 or 9 trick hand of oyur own and a partner who may have enough to guarantee a game or slam - or enough defense to defeat the opponents. And allows partner some say in the matter - based on his holdings.

 

Sorry - that is not my idea of partnership bridge. It is solitaire.

[jdonn]

I think I will shoot all my free throws underhanded now. After all, so did Rick Barry and he is in one of the best players of all time. And if any of you argue with me on this point I'll simply drop his name in every post and hope you forget I am nowhere near the player he is.

 

Pformaini, please tell me you realize why that was a stupid argument.

 

Anyway, I would suggest that if we have so little knowledge of who can make what then so does the strong hand on our right. Therefore we want him to make the final guess. It's not as simple as his partner doubling 5♣ to deny values, that still leaves his partner with a wide range of shape. If we pass a few times then bid 5♣ he will know about his partner's values and his partner's shape.

 

Anyway I'm not sure why anyone would discuss this with you. One of your examples has 15 cards:

 

[sE]A Q x x

♥A K

♦K Q J 10 9 8 6 5 4

♣  -

Another example of us making slam has us off 2 aces.

 

In short - why would I want to preempt partner when there is a chance that we not only have a game - but a SLAM? Give opener A Q J 10 x x♠ A K Q J x x ♥ x ♦ - and partner ♠ x x ♥ x x x  ♦ K Q x x x ♣ x x?

Many others are ridiculously unlikely (RHO has two voids??) and only serve to prove you wrong anyway (you should want to make him start on the 5 level if he can have such a wide variety of shapes). But you won't change your mind. Oh well.

 

What is most funny about your references to partnership bridge is not that our partner will virtually never contribute anything to our decision no matter how many times we pass. It's that you are the one only thinking of the problem of the 13 cards in front of your face, not the problems you could/should be causing for 2 of the other 3 players at the table.

[PFormaini]

The 15-card example was a mistake - which, of course, cannot be edited. :D

 

Most here know that.

 

Again:

 

1. Partner may have values that translate to a game or slam for your side.

 

2. You know absolutely nothing about RHOs hand.

 

3. You know absolutely nothing about LHOs hand.

 

4. You make a preemptive bid with what may be the strongest hand at the table.

 

And you think *I* am not a good partner? :)

 

Sorry. I will bid the hand slowly - learning what I can about the opponents hands - perhaps inviting partner into the bidding if the auction permits (and it very well may, permitting us to bid our laydown 3NT instead of going down in 5♣. Or in bidding our club (or diamond) slam.

 

Or I will consult partner and possibly get a plus score by DOUBLING THE OPPONENTS in 6♠ or 6♦.

 

Or - as is possible, I will defeat the OPPONENTS in 3NY (and Yes, I have seen opponents reach 3NT on such hands - often. Amazing how many people take a chance on 3NT with 10 x x as a 'stopper' - or on the chance the suit will not be led.)

 

But what I will NOT do is pretend that I have any idea what I am doing by bidding an inane 5♣ with absolutely nothing to go on. A bid that tells partner precisely NOTHING about my hand. As opposed to a 5♣ bid on:

 

♠ x x

♥ -

♦ x x

♣K Q J 10 9 7 6 5 3

 

Which tells partner I have no defensive values, a long and broken club suit - and permits HIM/HER to make a rational decision based on BOTH hands.

 

Old fashioned, I know. But effective.

[manudude03]

1. Partner may have values that translate to a game or slam for your side.

 

Maybe, but you're never going to find out with any confidence (chances of p having a heart stop are almost non-existent)

 

2. You know absolutely nothing about RHOs hand.

 

3. You know absolutely nothing about LHOs hand.

 

Does that mean you will never pre-empt in first seat? Afterall you don't know anything about LHO's and RHO's hand.

 

4. You make a preemptive bid with what may be the strongest hand at the table.

 

Occasionally jumping to game doesn't need to be weak. Would you stay low with AKQTxxx x AJxx x opposite a passed hand?

 

Or I will consult partner and possibly get a plus score by DOUBLING THE OPPONENTS in 6♠ or 6♦.

 

Given some of the hands you think are 2♣ openers, what's to say slam isn't making? Surely it is better to bid 5♣ to improve the chances of them going to slam off 2 key cards?

 

Or - as is possible, I will defeat the OPPONENTS in 3NY (and Yes, I have seen opponents reach 3NT on such hands - often. Amazing how many people take a chance on 3NT with 10 x x as a 'stopper' - or on the chance the suit will not be led.)

 

I thought we had aleady established the the 2♣ opener is very distributional, any 3NTers here would have to be blind followers of Hamman's rule.

 

Old fashioned, I know. But effective.

 

Old fashioned? maybe. Effective? LOL

 

If after all this, you still don't realise how powerful pre-empts can be, I would advise you to play some more against competent opps and read some more of the bidding problems here on the forums (at least a quarter of them are to do with pre-empts)

[jdonn]

Again:

This is the problem. You make the same points over and over, but no one was convinced before, so....

 

1. Partner may have values that translate to a game or slam for your side.

You keep saying slam, but that's utterly ridiculous to cater to. As for game, good thing I bid it!

 

2. You know absolutely nothing about RHOs hand.

 

3. You know absolutely nothing about LHOs hand.

How can you not see that it's more relevant RHO and LHO don't know anything about each other's hands, yet you are going to let them easily find out instead of preventing them from finding out?

 

4. You make a preemptive bid with what may be the strongest hand at the table.

Who cares what you call it? And why are you worried about a 2♣ opener on a 16 count?

 

And you think *I* am not a good partner?  :D

No, what I said was that passing a bunch of times has nothing to do with partnership bridge, and that it was funny to claim it does when you are forgetting to focus on the other partnership.

 

Sorry. I will bid the hand slowly - learning what I can about the opponents hands - perhaps inviting partner into the bidding if the auction permits (and it very well may, permitting us to bid our laydown 3NT instead of going down in 5♣. Or in bidding our club (or diamond) slam.

You keep making these general arguments that mean nothing. How will you invite partner into the auction, what will the auction be exactly? How will the auction go that lets you bid 3NT if it's making? And why are you so focused on slam, your partner is broke or nearly broke, it's plain as day.

 

Or I will consult partner and possibly get a plus score by DOUBLING THE OPPONENTS in 6♠ or 6♦.

But don't you see? Against you the opponents will have a nice quiet unimpeded auction to the correct contract, they won't get too high. Against a 5♣ overcall they have to guess and may well get too high.

 

Or - as is possible, I will defeat the OPPONENTS in 3NY (and Yes, I have seen opponents reach 3NT on such hands - often. Amazing how many people take a chance on 3NT with 10 x x as a 'stopper' - or on the chance the suit will not be led.)

Lol. You have 2 cards in the majors, and the opponents have a combined 23 at most, and you are going to sit there because they might reach 3NT with a suit unstopped? Are you even being serious?

 

But what I will NOT do is pretend that I have any idea what I am doing by bidding an inane 5♣ with absolutely nothing to go on. A bid that tells partner precisely NOTHING about my hand. As opposed to a 5♣ bid on:

 

♠ x x

♥ -

♦ x x

♣K Q J 10 9 7 6 5 3

 

Which tells partner I have no defensive values, a long and broken club suit - and permits HIM/HER to make a rational decision based on BOTH hands.

Again, who cares what you tell your broke partner? Please show me the auction where it is so crucial he knows what you have? You keep saying that, and ignoring that the opponents will know what they have too. Which is a more important concern?

 

Old fashioned, I know. But effective.

If you say so. Convince anyone yet?

[kenrexford]

5♣.

[mtvesuvius]

EVERY time partner PASSES we learn MORE and MORE, it's amazing! Maybe we'll have figured out that he has 13 CARDS by the time the opponents have had a leisurely auction up to their comfortable SLAM in 6♥.