Rose Petal Glasses

[pirate22]

you hold IMPS all non vuln pard dealer(N)2n/t-20-22 you south East passes ?????

 

Your hand QJ972---107632--984---void

 

when 6 answers come in---- ill pose another question please explain any bids,you make and visions

 

regards

[PFormaini]

Um.....some more background would be nice.

 

Are you playing transfers?

[P_Marlowe]

Transfer to spades, bid 4H.

 

Typical game try.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[PFormaini]

PM:

 

That would be nice - if playing transfers. :P

 

If not, 3♠ followed by 4♥ would seem indicated.

[pirate22]

yes stayman/ transfer/splinter /texas/mud/odd even/blackwoon/gerber omly over n/t's

[PFormaini]

Stayman would be an error - an indication that the user does not understand the theory behind the convention. It would also pointlessly give the opponents a chance to double the arrtificial bid to direct a lead or suggest a sacrifice.

 

If using transfers, i agree with P Marlowe. Transfer into spades and then bid hearts to let partner decide which is the superior strain in which to declare. Shows 5-5.

[whereagles]

The hand has 8 losers. A 20-22 2NT bid has an expectancy of around 6 cover cards. You'll probably make 10-11 tricks, so you should bid game.

[mtvesuvius]

Transfer then 4♥, wtp?

[gnasher]

Does everyone play 2NT-3♥;3♠-4♥ as just the values for game? Where I come from it's usually played as a slam try.

 

It's better to put the game-only hands through 3♣ if you can, because it increases the chances of playing from the right side. If you use

  2NT-3♣

  3♦-3♥ (Smolen)

  3NT-4♥

to show a weakish 5-5, you only wrongside game when opener is 2=3 in the majors.

[whereagles]

gnasher, what you say makes sense, but there's the memory issue. If pard forgets that 4♥ is a slam try, he might pass and it might be bad news.

 

Better use 2NT-4♣, say, as the slam try. Now opener can bid 4♦ with heart fit + good hand, 4M as fit and bad hand or anything else assuming spades as fit.

[mikeh]

There is no 'right' answer without agreement: as gnasher says, some pairs would assume 3♥ then 4♥ is slamming (if not, how do you make a slam try with 5-5 majors?). But, undiscussed, I would go that route. The smolen sequence is unattractive to me... if I did do it, I would stayman, then over 3♦, bid 3♥ and over 3N bid 4♦ as a transfer to hearts, with 4♥ as a transfer to spades, for the 6-4 hands. I am not saying this is optimum: merely pointing out that not everyone plays smolen the same way, so this option isn't clear either.

 

In fact, in a couple of my partnerships, we play 3N as CONFIT, which means we don't need g****r, and can and do use 4♣, over 2N, as a non-slam-interest 5-5 or better in the majors. Again, most would assume G****r, so I would never haul this out at the table except in those partnerships.

[Phil]

There's two reasonable ways with 5-5's. One is to play a transfer to spades and then hearts as a choice of games. The other is to transfer to hearts and bid spades as a 5-5 slam try.

 

The other is to play as Gnasher suggests - use Smolen and pull 3N. This works fine with a minimum 5-5, but I'd rather use a transfer followed by the other major as a single-suited slam try instead of a 5-5 slam try. Furthermore, how would you play 2N - 3♦ - 3♥ - 3♠ if the other sequence (2N - 3♥...) is a 5-5 slam try?

 

Mike's 2N - 4♣ can fill this hole to show a good 5-5, and I think there's been some discussions about that here previously.

[pirate22]

ok without smolen i went down the stayman trail 3cl to hear my pard reply 3n/t????

i was hoping for 3diamonds -if pard bids 3 diamonds would any one understand what 4 diamonds means (second question) as in 1n/t-2cl-2d-3d!!!

 

well over 3n/t i now bid 4hts-pard now bid 5d- passed out bad 4 spades is contract pard 3/2 majors

 

if one transfers 3hts -3sp-4hts im sure pard would assume slam on

 

interesting with 5/5 majors when is it weak and when is it strong,which route to differentiate regards

[Stephen Tu]

Modern Bridge Conventions by Root/Pavlicek suggests 3h-3s;4h as choice of games, 3d-3h;3s as slam try both majors. Apparently not as standard as I previously thought?

 

Pirate22, your pet idea of stayman then diamonds to show both majors, either over 1nt or 2nt, is completely non-standard. I have no idea where you learned such an idea. How on earth do you show diamonds if you had say a strong hand with 5/6 diamonds and a 4 cd major?

 

This is conceivably playable over 1nt if you were using Scanian style methods where one uses some transfer rebids after 1nt-2c-2d (2nt->3c, 3c->3d), freeing up 3d+ rebids for other purposes, but it's unheard of in the standard literature and by 99++% of bridge players. Plus you'd have to justify using the call for that hand instead of using other sequences.

 

Using diamonds to show both majors is done in some puppet stayman variants where the 3d response promises a major, but that's usually with 4-4 in the majors, not 5-5. It's not used with regular stayman

[Stephen Tu]

OK, did some internet research. Apparently pirate22 plays an old convention called Weissberger which uses 1nt-2c-2d-3d to show both majors. This is practically unheard of in the U.S., but had some popularity in English Acol 50 years ago, predating transfers.

 

Almost no one uses this any more! Since we now have transfers, there are other ways to show both majors, and stop lower, so the convention doesn't have the utility it would without transfers, plus it takes away ability to show good hands with diamonds.

[Lobowolf]

OK, did some internet research. Apparently pirate22 plays an old convention called Weissberger which uses 1nt-2c-2d-3d to show both majors. This is practically unheard of in the U.S., but had some popularity in English Acol 50 years ago, predating transfers.

 

Almost no one uses this any more! Since we now have transfers, there are other ways to show both majors, and stop lower, so the convention doesn't have the utility it would without transfers, plus it takes away ability to show good hands with diamonds.

I want to start using it just so when opponents ask, I can matter-of-factly say "It's Weissberger."

[mtvesuvius]

Yuck

[Lobowolf]

Also interestingly, after getting up to age 89, Mr. Weissberger just died about 2 months ago. Alan Truscott was in on the creation of the convention.

[PFormaini]

Stephen:

 

If he uses Weissburger, then why would he need to play transfers at all?

 

Apparently we have a convention freak here - someone who wants to play everything - whether it is redundant or not. :)

 

Most of the world would transfer and then bid hearts with that hand. Choose a major suit game. (A few ancients would use Stayman - illogically - and try to force a major suit choice later - but that is a truly inept way to bid the hand.)

[pirate22]

correct it was from acol before transfers--i first learnt goren-then onto acol-transfers not heard of-now Sayc because of internet-as they say "when in Rome do AS THE ROMANS DO" i have NP with regular pards BECAUSE I HAVE /we the understanding alerted-perhaps i shld declare acolised sayc:)I clasify myself as advanced ,to be fair,and notice a pleasure to play with experts against experts,and see opps off but on reflection stayman on this hand was wrong,but i still regard my pards response of 3n.t to my stayman as wrong ty all for inputs

[PFormaini]

Pirate:

 

Why on Earth would you use Stayman with 2 5-card suits? It is worthless - and does nothing except provide your OPPONENTS the chance to either make a lead-directing double or else locate a possible club fit for a sacrifice against your major suit game.

 

There is no need for Stayman in this situation. Transfer into one major and them show the other at the 4 level.

 

But 3NT is inane under ANY set of circumstances. If your partner bid it, times to have a LONG discussion about when suit fits are to be preferred. :P

[1eyedjack]

For those who don't want an overly complicated system of continuations over 2N they can bolt on re-transfers, so that

2N-3H-3S-4C = 5-5 in spades and hearts

2N-3H-3S-4D = Spades and clubs

2N-3H-3S-4H = Spades and diamonds

 

or alternatively

2N-3H-3S-4C = Spades and diamonds

2N-3H-3S-4D = Spades and hearts

2N-3H-3S-4H = Spades and clubs.

 

Alternative 2 has a slight advantage when you have diamonds

Alternative 1 has a slight advantage when you have clubs or hearts, most notably that it allows opener to show interest with 4D. But either method allow you to show both forcing and non-forcing hands with 5-5 in the majors.

 

I prefer an alternative scheme altogether, but this seems to bolt reasonably seemlessly onto other methods.

[gnasher]

This thread seems to be rich in dogma.

 

Using 1NT-2C;2D-3D to ask for three-card majors, called Extended Stayman in England, used to be fairly normal in English Acol - in 1974, Crowhurst wrote that this was the "generally agreed" meaning. The details are similar to (but not identical to) the method described as Weissberger in the ACBL Encyclopedia.

 

This isn't inconsistent with playing transfers. If 1NT-2C;2D-3D covers all game-forces with 54/45/55 in the majors, you can use 1NT-2D;2H-2S, 1NT-2H;2S-3H and 1NT-2C;2D-3H/S to show other hands. I do, in fact, play this in one of my partnerships (though I'm not suggesting that this makes it any less obscure).

 

If 2NT-3C;3D-4D isn't needed for something more useful, it seems quite sensible to use it to show 5-5 in the majors. When responder is weak, it ensures that the contract is rightsided; when he has a marginal slam try, it means that he can find out whether there's a nine-card fit before deciding whether to make a try; if he does make a slam try, he'll know more about opener's shape and will be able to evaluate prospects better. Again, I don't mean to imply that this makes it standard.

[ninja89]

Following up on gnasher's comments, you could incorporate several other features after 2NT-3C-3D too. For instance, with 5=4 in the majors, bid 3H as a transfer to S. With 4=5, however, and only game-going values, bid 3NT. 3S serves as a puppet to 3NT, after which responder can show slam interest with a long minor naturally. 4C could show 4=5 and slam-interest, 4D used as extended stayman. It's easy to tweak things depending on what your priorities are, if, for instance, you want a way to show 5=5 and slam-interest while going through 3C. Either way, it certainly clarifies things once you transfer to a major initially.

 

Anyway, the point of all that is: you can make agreements work. In some cases they might not be that great, but in most cases they will work better for your having discussed and understood them in your partnership. As far as this example goes, it's not that bad an agreement to have. The relative obscurity of it is of little relevance.

[mike777]

you hold IMPS all non vuln pard dealer(N)2n/t-20-22 you south East passes ?????

 

Your hand QJ972---107632--984---void

 

when 6 answers come in---- ill pose another question please explain any bids,you make and visions

 

regards

3h