kenrexford Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 ♠AKQxxx ♥Ax ♦A ♣Q109x You open 2♣. Debatable, but you do. Partner is a passed hand, but he comes alive with a 3♣ response. (Normal approach, 2♥ would have been an immediate double negative, 2♦ artificial GF, all else "standard.") Suppose, for the sake of the question, that you had one call to make before drinks. What call would you make, and is there any possibility that your decision would result in a set? Add one more fact -- the club will NOT have anyone in a grand, but you know that everyone will be in some small slam, whether 6♣, 6♠, or 6NT. I suppose one additional fact -- whatever the form of scoring, you want to get the best reasonable result possible, with one bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Very odd set of assumptions. Under these conditions, I would bid 6♣. Either 6♠ or 6NT could be right, but 6♣ requires less from partner (who has already promised a significant club suit) to be right. I presume that this is a matchpoint event, otherwise 6♣ is 100% clear. Yes, it is possible that 6♣ could fail. Partner could have: xxx xx K KJTxxxx This assumes that 3♣ is a permissible bid with this hand in response to a 2♣ opening (no requirement that the suit be headed by 2 of the top 3 honors, or something like that). A heart lead is going to beat 6♣. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinidad Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 I would go for 7♣. Partner is a passed hand, he cannot have a decent 7 card club suit. This means that we can assume he has 5, maybe 6 nice clubs. To me, it seems entirely reasonable to expect ♣AKxxx (since we have QT ourselves). With ♣KJxxx, partner shouldn't take away so much bidding space with a 3♣ bid. If partner has ♣AKxxx, I expect to make 7♣ by setting up the spade suit and discarding partner's hearts. I know that there are layouts where 7♣ may not make, but you gave me only one bid. Rik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted May 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 I thought standard was that a positive response promises two of the top three honors and that, if there is an exception, that exception could be ruled out after no 3♣ opening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 I thought standard was that a positive response promises two of the top three honors and that, if there is an exception, that exception could be ruled out after no 3♣ opening. If the positive response promised the ♣AK, and the field isn't bidding a grand, why would we do anything but 7♣? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted May 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 I thought standard was that a positive response promises two of the top three honors and that, if there is an exception, that exception could be ruled out after no 3♣ opening. If the positive response promised the ♣AK, and the field isn't bidding a grand, why would we do anything but but 7♣? Well, maybe 3♣ doesn't actually promise two of the top three honors. I'm trying to find out what standard is. Of course, I apparently saw some need to ask a simple question in as confusing a manner as possible. Sometimes I even wonder about myself... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skjaeran Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 The way I respond, this is easy. I'll just bid 7♣. Holding QT9 of clubs, partner is bound to have AKxxxx or better. If I didn't have to make just one bid, I'd look for spade support to be able to bid 7NT instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbforster Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 7♣ since 3♣ shows AKxxx (2/3 top) for me. Take my chances we can set up enough tricks between my spades and diamond ruffs in the (my) short hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IdiotVig Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 If we're really worried about the club honors, 5NT has to be GSF here, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hanp Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 How would you look for spade support Harald? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichMor Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 I know it's not one bid but 5NT as GSF seems like the way to go. If pard replies 7♣, bid 7NT for all the matchpoints. If pard replies 6♣, then Pass or 6♠ if you think the field will be there. If only one bid allowed then 6♠. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skjaeran Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 How would you look for spade support Harald? A very simple concept, Han. I'd bid them. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IdiotVig Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 If only one bid allowed then 6♠. Maybe that's the trick here; you "bid" 5NT, and pass partner's response. One bid, one call. I'm guessing this probably wasn't some semantic trick from Ken in the first place, but one never knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mbodell Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 I thought standard was that a positive response promises two of the top three honors and that, if there is an exception, that exception could be ruled out after no 3♣ opening. If the positive response promised the ♣AK, and the field isn't bidding a grand, why would we do anything but but 7♣? Well, maybe 3♣ doesn't actually promise two of the top three honors. I'm trying to find out what standard is. Of course, I apparently saw some need to ask a simple question in as confusing a manner as possible. Sometimes I even wonder about myself... I'm pretty sure standard is 2 of the top 3. But I often play it as 1 of the top 2 with partnerships where we open 2♣ on unbalanced 4 LTC or better hands that most BBF people would not open 2♣. As for the question at hand, at MP if I needed a swing I'd try 6nt and otherwise I'd bid 6♣. At IMPs if I need a swing I'll bid 7♣ and otherwise I'd bid 6♣. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted May 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 If we're really worried about the club honors, 5NT has to be GSF here, right? If partner has shown two of the top three honors, then GSF does ask if he has two of the top three honors. He already told you that. It might ask if his two honors are the Ace and King, or it might ask if he has all three honors, or if he has Ace King and extra length, or the Jack (maybe Opener has stiff Queen???), but it doesn't ask for what he already showed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted May 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 BTW -- the reason for the question asked in a strange manner is that I had no tools with this partner. 4NT would have been Roman Blackwood, for some bizarre reason (his idea). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hanp Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 How would you look for spade support Harald? A very simple concept, Han. I'd bid them. B) Got the auction wrong. Not easy for such a short auction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Well, maybe 3♣ doesn't actually promise two of the top three honors. I'm trying to find out what standard is 5NT - I don't care what standard is. I want to know what PARTNER thinks standard is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 5NT - I don't care what standard is. I want to know what PARTNER thinks standard is. ;) :lol: :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted May 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Well, maybe 3♣ doesn't actually promise two of the top three honors. I'm trying to find out what standard is 5NT - I don't care what standard is. I want to know what PARTNER thinks standard is. That's the best answer yet. Except, unless partner doesn't know what 5NT means. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Well, maybe 3♣ doesn't actually promise two of the top three honors. I'm trying to find out what standard is 5NT - I don't care what standard is. I want to know what PARTNER thinks standard is. That's the best answer yet. Except, unless partner doesn't know what 5NT means. :lol:Actually, worse than that because partner is a BBO forum regular who knows not only what 5N means but is certain that you already knew he held the AK for his 3C bid so your 5N must be asking something else - like, do you also hold the Jack? Being wise beyond his years - and noticing there is no missing Jack in with his spades, and thus realizing that he indeed is one Jack off, he confidently places the 6C card in front of himself. And now you know what Standard is..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Having read all of the posts, there seems to be a consensus that "standard" is 2 of the top 3 honors for a positive suit response to a 2♣ opening bid. If this is true, and you know that your partner is aware of this, then 7♣ is the obvious "one-bid" answer to the question posed in the original post. But, from the manner in which the original post was phrased, it is clear that it is NOT known that partner knows that his 3♣ response to 2♣ shows 2 of the top 3 honors in clubs. Furthermore, if others in the club have this "standard" agreement, how can the OP state that no one will bid a grand on this hand? There are many ways to uncover a club fit and find out that partner has two key cards with clubs as trump. Or, if a spade fit is found, there are many ways to find out that partner has the AK of clubs. If one "knows" that no one at the club is going to bid a grand on these cards, then there must be a reason. That is why I settle on 6♣. 7♣ is a top or bottom bid. Without assurance that partner has the AK of clubs, I will not bid the grand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skjaeran Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Having read all of the posts, there seems to be a consensus that "standard" is 2 of the top 3 honors for a positive suit response to a 2♣ opening bid. Not for me. KJTxxx/AJTxxx is the minimum suit quality. That's why holding QT9 I can place partner with at least AK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted May 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Furthermore, if others in the club have this "standard" agreement, how can the OP state that no one will bid a grand on this hand? There are many ways to uncover a club fit and find out that partner has two key cards with clubs as trump. Or, if a spade fit is found, there are many ways to find out that partner has the AK of clubs. If one "knows" that no one at the club is going to bid a grand on these cards, then there must be a reason. ...then there must be a reason... Have you ever played in a club game? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmcw Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 5NT what else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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