Put up or S....

[Gweny]

:) Dear experts.

 

In case you do not notice you BBO TDs ask for you help. So far not one of you even OFFER to do clinic for us.

 

You will note title of this forum is TOURNAMENT DIRECTORS forum.

 

Frankly I come here to see what my FELLOW DIRECTORS is worry about, new suggestions for td interface, tournament discipline issues, etc.

 

I do NOT come here to read harassing and basically disrespectful posts from people who make no attempt to help us but seem to adore pointing out how much we lack at every opportunity.

 

I like compliment you on you handy work. I am sure my fellow tds notice a strong tendency, since you share you undying admiration for our abilities, of arguementative players questioning td rulings. And i am not referring to complex bidding/alert problems I am talking of even minor issues.

 

Thanks so much. I respectfully ask you to leave us alone if you is not going to help us. Go post in tournament forum and leave director forum for directors. We know we is not perfect and we strive to improve.

 

So like they say put up or hush.

[Mirjam_3]

wow, i love you, Gweny, and yes, i wd love to have clincis to learn something, so help us or leave us alone :)

[showle]

Gweny makes a good point here.

 

Certainly there is room for improvement with our volunteer hosts-- on a "job" like this, you never stop learning. Even fully certified tournament directors are always learning new things, so this isn't limited to just the volunteers on BBO.

 

Perhaps it is too easy to forget that the people in question here are volunteers, not paid employees. The tournaments that they run aren't for masterpoints, and the games that they run are all free for the players. And for the most part I do think that the volunteers on BBO do a very good job. For every mistake or bad ruling, there are fifty good rulings that never get mentioned.

 

I think that it is admirable that the volunteer hosts here have asked for further learning and guidance. In my opinion, this shows a lot about thier dedication to this game and to this site.

 

I do hope that somebody is quick to take the volunteers up on their offer. Instead of complaining, step forward and become a part of the solution. We've already lost one excellent volunteer director due to these boards, and I'd hate to see others follow in his steps.

 

It's far from "pleasant" when a volunteer comes to these boards and has to read constant complaints about how they are "incompetent". Instead of posting these things, why not lend a helping hand?

 

I will say what Gweny and Mirjam have said: Put up or keep quiet.

[spwdo]

hi tdfriends& hi forumreaders,

 

 

Seems impossible that on a worldly site as BBO no Experts (perfectly knowing how a tourney shoud be run /how issues shoud be dealt)are found to offer lesser gifted TDS a form of clinic .

 

What woud this change for player/expert in question?

 

Player/expert in question woud be apprecaited/thanked/praised/ground he/she walks on is kissed over and over again :o As im sure because BBOTDS still know the words THANK YOU.Expert woud not have the ability to write as much on the forum (maybe catch 2 flies with one blow :D )

 

What woud this change for BBO?

 

Well, lesser forumtopics alias complaints/and wurse about TDS.Tourneys according to expertsstanding will approve in handling all there is to handdle.maybe we see the day a good/acceptable tourney is run on BBO.sarcastic)

 

Seriuosly, all we asked long time deja is an expertstouch willing to donate some time and effort, believe me when i say to whoever takes this up, he will donate less then the average TDS on BBo yet he will gain respect,make a friend or 2 down the line, will receive gratitude in amounts he never held possible.

 

 

marc

P.S.loving my TD(vacation/resignation not sure yet).Maybe soon can change my skillevel to expert :) now my game has a chance of improving (maybe even change my name soon also :) ....... think i earned a vacation after a lot of tourneys ;)

[hrothgar]

Comment the first:

 

I find Gweny's posting infuriating on a number of different levels.

 

First: The critiques posted on this forum have been largely constructive. If you are unable to tolerate this type of criticism, then you need to think whether you really should be directing.

 

Second: As to your "put up or shut up" comment:

 

There are already ample resources available on the net that prospective tournaments directors can use to educate themselves regarding the laws or directing tournament. For example, the Bridge-Laws mailing list is an excellent environment by which directors can direct questions to top level authorities regarding the Laws. You can subscribe to the BLML at http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml

 

If folks prefer a somewhat less contentious environment, David Stevenson maintains a web forum where you can ask him questions directly. David is one of the best known authorities on the Laws and also has enormous experience with online bridge. David's forums are available at http://www.blakjak.demon.co.uk/iacf1.htm

 

Third: There is another useful quote: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink." From my perspective, too many "directors" aren't interested in actually learning. Rather, they are engaged in a quest to justify their pre-existing biases.

 

Quite honestly, I'm not interested in spending lots of time trying to "teach" these individuals. However, I have a strong interest in making sure that the regulatory models that they are promoting don't spread...

[blackbikin]

hi all,

 

im sorry experts but, i support gweny. i think reading about td and doing it in practice are two different things.

 

to xxxxx [ ui] :

 

i would like one of these experts as codirector, probably would happen the same, as to player, who complained to me too much and i made him codirector...after 30 minutes he was out and never ever complained again.

 

and to just assume tds are not prepared of learning, where the hell did you find that out¿

ask borko , ask uday, marc, gweny, mirjam and more and more how a lot of us including me asked and pestied them to come to knowledge we/ i have now.... not wanting to learn, that is absurd statement. ask all people i trained how much we looked at , talked about it, worked together.....

im sure that you do not want "to spend your precious time with teaching these individuals".....[snipped - ui]

 

i agree with statments: if i direct tourney, its my rules and i'm the boss...you do not like it, play another one.

 

but i also agree that td should be trained in differrent tourneys, before they are approved to become tds.and a recomendation of td, that has experience should be added.

 

and to marc:well i do miss you, without your help on my computer and being there for me when i was totaly blondie stupid i would never make it.

have good whatever you are having marcmy friend with whom : we agreed to disagree.

 

love to all

blackbikini/barbara

[Chamaco]

Sorry if I post on a TD forum, if this OT or undue, please remove this post.

 

Anyway this is just to give a contribution, hopefully constructive, to a thread that is quickly becoming a flame :P

 

DISCLAIMER- THIS POST IS NOT WILLING TO TAKE EITHER PART IN THIS CONTESTATION

 

I do believe we all know that there are arrogant people in life, so we'll meet them also when playing bridge.

 

Arrogant people will not admit mistakes in discussions, they will try to use all kind of arguments rather than admit they were wrong.

 

I have met both arrogant players and arrogant directors.

 

I do believe that the best way to deal with these contestations is to try to be as objective as one can, and avoid any personal implication.

 

In my opinion the way to do it is that TDs just state clearly the number of the article code of the bridge laws they are applying.

Then one can just read it.

 

I have seen in live bridge good TDs just do like that: when arrogant players yell at them, these TDs just pull out the Book of the Rules and put the article in front of them.

Sometimes it does not work because some of these players will not stop yelling, but most of the time the case is over that way.

Things go much worse when the same players yell against some less-prepared TDs.

 

This procedure immediately informs the player that the TD is not exerting a dictatorship but applying the rules as mentioned in an official document.

This way the player does not feel the decision as unfair, but as a well-documented and well thougt choice.

 

I also do believe that a player has a right to ask to a director the reason of a decision, and it would be nice for a director to inform him of the reasons for it.

 

Using the abovementioned procedure is in my opinion a good way to avoid the contestation to become a personal matter.

[Otard]

I am fairly new as TD, on BBO, but i have some experience from directing real bridge, and i promise you, this is quite different, more stress.

 

I am of the oppinion that, to run social tournaments, the only skills you need is to be friendly and open to people, if you want to run expert tournaments you have to have had some experience, but still i think it is hard to be fair everytime you judge at a table, everything has to go fast, as so many players are disconected, or you are busy adjusting scores.

 

It seem to me like many players, even experts try to drag time when they get into bad contracts, to get ave, if we could get rid of that problem it would make everything easier for everyone.

 

I have to agree, with blackbikin, if you dont like how the turney is run, find another on, and if there is none good enogh, ask to be TD and start your own turney.

 

i also give full support to gweny

[uday]

This will become nothing but a flame war unless we realize that both "sides" are doing what they think is best for the membrship in the long run. If the thead gets too warm, I'll shut it down, naturally.

 

In that spirit, the "TDs" should attempt to react with less vigour , and the other side should bear in mind that some of the TDs are quick to react to perceived slights.

 

If you post is emotional don't post until you cool off.

 

if your post radiates hostility, or any other negative emotion, don't post until the sun

goes dark.

[blackbikin]

ok, uday i agree.

 

but we are asking for clinic, as long as i can remeber.we would love to improve.

and just pls all ,before you add reply go to: "directing on bbase" and read csdenmark reply.i think he's right.

love

blackbikin

[csdenmark]

What do you need? You need resources - WEB resources!

 

You need:

 

1) REGISTERS for:

- Expressions/alerts in different languages

- Personal resources

- Sharing player information

- Conventions

- Systems/basic of systems

- Rulings

- Laws

 

2) FORUM for discussions between TDs only

3) STANDARD TOURNEY RULES from which each TD will be able to plug and use. Such must be prepared to produce of a decent machine translation

4) MESSENGER connection of TDs

 

-------------------------------------------

 

Of course you will be able to benefit from experienced f2f TDs - but not very much. They don't need to deal with the variety of problems you are confronted with. They don't need mentally to recover from polish language before dealing with disconnections by all argentinian players etc. Such will be helpful to teach you how to rule about fx. conventions. You right now have an example in another thread discussing the Muiderberg convention. What you will be able to adopt from such is most what can be and really is already written in documents.

 

- You need to take coherent and decisive actions.

 

- You need to stop discussions in BBO Forum about complaints over TDs. Discussions thrives by opponents else they will die.

[Frosty]

@Gweny@Mirjam@SHowle

 

If I may chime in, Gweny has worked very hard to provide help and training to new and less experienced TD's. She did this because she is a genuinely unselfish and generous soul - not because someone asked her to. She has also made a concerted effort to solicite help from "expert" TD's for more advanced training - to no avail.

 

In life people tend to exhibit one of four traits; they are either: 1) humble with limited gifts/resources, 2) humble but gifted, 3) arrogant with limited gifts/resources or 4) arrogant and gifted. There is no question that a great deal of condescension can be found on these message boards from persons who fall into categories 3 and 4. Conversely, there are numerous examples of person's in categories 1 and 2 expressing a sincere desire to improve their skills.

 

If criticism is leveled with the intention to humiliate a volunteer - or with the intention to demonstrate the superior knowledge/skill of the poster - and there is no intention of contributing to a solution, of what value are the words? Actions speak louder.

 

Some of the replies in this thread seem to suggest that the poster has no comprehension of why every volunteer doesn't have the level of skill acceptable to the poster. Here are some of the real-life reasons:

- Not all of us have been around the game of bridge for the same number of yrs

- Not all of us have the same gifts of reason/intellect

- People learn in different ways and at different rates

- People's ability to learn generally decreases with age

- Some have time constraints and must choose between helping/learning

No doubt there are many additional reasons; these are a few of the possible and reasonable impediments. In addition, I find that many who complain about TD errors/skills simply haven't walked a mile in the shoes. It's not easy to make the quick judgements necessary within the time constraints when the events blend such a wide range of languages, nationalities, cultures, bridge laws and bidding systems.

 

I am personally impressed when anyone VOLUNTEERS to make it possible for others to have fun; KUDO's are deserved by all the TD's, no matter how skilled. Some of us have forgotten how many tournaments were available only a short year ago compared to today. I agree with the posture of several of my peers posting before me - if you feel I do not measure up, play in someone else's game.

 

As for me, I will continue to volunteer and to improve my skills as I am able. I won't be bullied or intimidated (well, maybe just a little LOL) by those with more credentials/knowledge. Will I make mistakes? - You bet, but it won't keep me up at night because, on the graph of life, this is not a major plot. Bridge is still just a game and no TD call by a volunteer director in a social tournament is important enough to warrant de-edification.

 

Gweny's point is a good one: Don't like the skill level of the Volunteer TD's - what can YOU do to resolve the problem? Actions speak much louder than words.

 

Frosty

[mishovnbg]

Hi nice Gwen ♥♥♥!

I will not bother you any more, if you like to know my opinion, please leave me PM in forum, as well as where I must answer! But be ready to receive needed imo amount of bitter medicine laugh - you will remeber it a lot of time, my favourite trick as professional teacher B) .

 

[snipped - uday]

 

Good director is servant of players and his primary goal is to ensure their pleasure. The boss is manager of tourney, in BBO Fred and Uday. Best director is also lawyer, prosecutor, judge, diplomat, psychoanalyst and even medic in f2f tournaments.

 

With above said I will not post more in TDs forum, except by explicit ask by TD by PM message.

 

TDs real friend Misho

[Gweny]

B) Dear Misho,

 

I welcome all help. Majority of us do. If we is doing something improper how do we learn if someone do not tell us.

 

Do not misunderstand my intention. I welcome positive constructive assistence and so do my fellow tds - hence our invitation to give us clinics.

 

We do same to develop adjustment clinic. Do it cover every single instance - of course not. Is it engrave in stone tablets - of course not. it is only guidelines. But we assemble panel of 5 certify directors to come up with this guidelines, then we present it to general membership to arrive at consensus. Is it perfect? no but it is rather remarkable accomplishment considering deepth and breathe of td community. do all tds follow this guidelines - maybe no but at least resource is available.

 

We ask same on this rules thing. We like very much see panel emerge and then present to general membership, and post results/outcome on website. It is how we learn and create resources for new tds.

 

I am annoy when i see non solution general yapping at tds. we is volunteers and vary in skills. Is all TDs bad? no, is all excellent? no... our tds is broad spectrum... but you must remember this

 

They all serve.