just need sanity check please

[rfedrick]

[hv=d=w&v=b&s=sxhxdj98xxxck10xxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP

(2♠)-X-(4♠) to you. If it matters, RHO is a very strong player, LHO less so but solid.[/hv]

 

It's possible that i should really be posting partner's hand as the problem, but i'll see what the consensus is this way round first.

[Echognome]

To me it's an obvious 4NT. Although my 2nd choice would be simply to bid 5♦ as we have a good chance of landing in clubs when diamonds is better by bidding 4NT.

[mtvesuvius]

obv 4NT

[barmar]

4NT for me, too. 2nd choice is pass, hoping partner will reopen, and then I'll bid 4NT.

 

The problem with bidding 5♦ immediately is that partner might take you to have a stronger hand, not just shape, and raise you to 6 ("but partner, you made a free bid at the 5 level!").

[Cascade]

Is it obvious that 4NT is for takeout?

 

What rules do you have for this sort of auction?

 

In principle we have different rules when we have double available than when we are responding to a double from partner.

[jdonn]

It's certainly obvious to me 4NT is takeout for two suits and that's what I would do. I do appreciate that we could reach clubs with diamonds better, but I want to leave both suits in play (I don't agree that 5♦ implies a better hand than 4NT, at least in terms of playing strength).

[whereagles]

Is it obvious that 4NT is for takeout?

 

What rules do you have for this sort of auction?

Not totally obvious.

 

Rule is "in case of pree, shape comes first". This makes it obvious.. at least for me ;)

[the hog]

4NT. It is obvious for me as well that this is for takeout.

[cherdanno]

I think 4NT is clear.

[hanp]

No alternatives.

[Phil]

Don't like 4N. If pard has the type of hand where you want to compete to the 5 level, pard will double a 2nd time, and now 4N describes your hand to a tee.

 

I also don't like competing in spots like this where pard doesn't have a clue about your strength. I think there are many hands where pard can double that should be allowed to bid 6. This is a horrible hand if pard is expecting more.

 

Put it this way, if you think its correct to bid 4N on the subject hand, and bid it on a hand like: x, x, AQJxx, KTxxxx, I think you need to have your bidding glasses cleaned.

[hanp]

Clear 4NT, too many ways to win.

[JLOL]

Put it this way, if you think its correct to bid 4N on the subject hand, and bid it on a hand like: x, x, AQJxx, KTxxxx, I think you need to have your bidding glasses cleaned.

You mean you might be under pressure when they bid this way, and partner has to give you a lot of leeway so you might miss slam? WOW.

[Hanoi5]

I hardly believe Pass it's obvious, though I don't bid 4NT confidently.

[Phil]

Put it this way, if you think its correct to bid 4N on the subject hand, and bid it on a hand like: x, x, AQJxx, KTxxxx, I think you need to have your bidding glasses cleaned.

You mean you might be under pressure when they bid this way, and partner has to give you a lot of leeway so you might miss slam? WOW.

A lot of leeway is right.

 

Harken back to the GNT-A from Atlanta. You hold: ♠AKx, KQxx, AKQxx, x and hear:

 

3♣ - dbl - 5♣ - 5♠

pass - ?

[655321]

4NT obvious.

 

A lot of leeway is right.

 

Harken back to the GNT-A from Atlanta. You hold: ♠AKx, KQxx, AKQxx, x and hear:

 

3♣ - dbl - 5♣ - 5♠

pass - ?

 

On your hand I would always bid 6♠, recognizing that this might not work. The singleton in their suit is a very bad holding for bidding slam.

 

But how is this similar to the hand in this thread? I know I will bid 4NT on the actual auction much more often than I would bid 5♠ on your auction. Partner knows we have a number of possible motives for bidding 5/4. To bid 5/5 on the other hand we should be expecting to make our contract - I believe that to bid 5/5 on these auctions as a sacrifice is bad bridge. There is a big difference between bidding 5m over 4♠ and bidding 5♠ over 5m.

[OleBerg]

Obv. 4NT.

 

If I played with a partner adverse to bidding on few values, I might bid it reluctantly, preparing for the post-mortem.

[jdonn]

Phil if partner bids 6 why can't it even be making? Oversimplifying, but essentially there are 5 important cards for slam and we make if he has 4 of them.

 

I won't work very hard to convince you, but passing is really quite awful.

[Phil]

4NT obvious.

 

A lot of leeway is right.

 

Harken back to the GNT-A from Atlanta. You hold: ♠AKx, KQxx, AKQxx, x and hear:

 

3♣ - dbl - 5♣ - 5♠

pass - ?

 

On your hand I would always bid 6♠, recognizing that this might not work. The singleton in their suit is a very bad holding for bidding slam.

 

But how is this similar to the hand in this thread? I know I will bid 4NT on the actual auction much more often than I would bid 5♠ on your auction. Partner knows we have a number of possible motives for bidding 5/4. To bid 5/5 on the other hand we should be expecting to make our contract - I believe that to bid 5/5 on these auctions as a sacrifice is bad bridge. There is a big difference between bidding 5m over 4♠ and bidding 5♠ over 5m.

It is similar because the 5♠ bidder had a hand of the same genre. ♠Q-7th and some shape.

[cherdanno]

Don't like 4N. If pard has the type of hand where you want to compete to the 5 level, pard will double a 2nd time, and now 4N describes your hand to a tee.

 

I also don't like competing in spots like this where pard doesn't have a clue about your strength. I think there are many hands where pard can double that should be allowed to bid 6. This is a horrible hand if pard is expecting more.

 

Put it this way, if you think its correct to bid 4N on the subject hand, and bid it on a hand like: x, x, AQJxx, KTxxxx, I think you need to have your bidding glasses cleaned.

Better miss a couple of 60% slams (suits don't break well on these auctions) than miss a couple of double game swings.

[rfedrick]

Like almost everyone here (kudos to Phil and the other doubters) I bid 4NT and thought it ws automatic.

 

Partner had K AKQ10x AKQx Qxx and felt that he had far too many extras to bid only 5♦. The opponents gratefully cashed their two bullets and we were -100.

 

Partner gently suggested that Pass/4NT described my values rather well; I gently suggested that there were far too many hands that which he wouldn't be able to reopen, but that we should still be bidding 5m, to make Pass sensible.

 

We both agreed the other had a fair point, and moved on without really achieving a resolution.

 

Comments?

[Codo]

To bid now catters for the possibility, that partner has a "normal" take out and no second bid when we pass now.

 

So I guess that it is mandatory to have the ability to show our hand now. This will win on so many hands that the occaisional lost to the one slam hand won't matter.

[gnasher]

Partner had K AKQ10x AKQx Qxx and felt that he had far too many extras to bid only 5♦.

I'd have bid 4NT on your hand and driven slam on your partner's. There's nothing wrong with that: over 4♠ the odds favoured bidding 4NT rather than passing, and opposite your 4NT the odds favoured bidding slam. It just happened not to work.

[655321]

But how is this similar to the hand in this thread?  I know I will bid 4NT on the actual auction much more often than I would bid 5♠ on your auction.  Partner knows we have a number of possible motives for bidding 5/4.  To bid 5/5 on the other hand we should be expecting to make our contract - I believe that to bid 5/5 on these auctions as a sacrifice is bad bridge.  There is a big difference between bidding 5m over 4♠ and bidding 5♠ over 5m.

It is similar because the 5♠ bidder had a hand of the same genre. ♠Q-7th and some shape.

Then I didn't make my point very well, because I was trying to say that a weak hand with Q-7th and some shape is exactly the sort of hand that:

• [a] should not bid 5

♠ over 5♣, but
 would bid 5♣ over 4♠.

So the the doubler in [a] should not expect a weak hand, but the doubler in knows a weak hand opposite is possible, therefore the two situations are not similar.

 

But from your answers in this thread, it appears you do bid 5/5 with weak distributional hands, but don't bid 5/4 with weak distributional hands. This seems the wrong way around to me.

[hanp]

I think Arend said it well. By bidding 4NT here with a wide range we will miss some decent slams and sometimes we will go down in a hopeless slam. Much more often though there will be a good sac, a making game or a double game swing or we will push them to 5S.

 

Sure, if we knew that partner was going to double 4S then we could pass first but we really don't know.