Muslm Demographics

[Winstonm]

I have a clue - there is no such thing as a "newborn Muslim".  Religious affiliation is not inherited but is a choice.

Get a clue, Winston. This is completely false. You might be able to argue that in theory it's not, but in practice your assertion is LOL.

 

Amen.

The evils of Islam are to be defeated at whatever cost to our souls.

 

Religious affiliation is not inherited but is a choice.

This is completely false

 

Completely false - meaning that 100% of children spend their entire lives as followers of their parents' religion. I was born to Nazarene parents but have not considered myself a Nararene since I escaped the home asylum. That already disproves your 100% theory - yet I am the one who is supposed to get a clue?????? I have a very big clue as to how influential parental pressure coupled with religious guilt can be - but it still ain't 100%.

 

OK - but just for you I will get a clue.

 

For my clue I say Dick Cheney in the Non-executive-branch office of the vice-president with the CIA candlestick.

[Lobowolf]

I have a clue - there is no such thing as a "newborn Muslim".  Religious affiliation is not inherited but is a choice.

Get a clue, Winston. This is completely false. You might be able to argue that in theory it's not, but in practice your assertion is LOL.

 

Amen.

The evils of Islam are to be defeated at whatever cost to our souls.

Uhhhhh yeah...Kevin's comment about religious affiliation of descendants is clearly connected to Islam's being evil, or needing to be defeated.

 

STR_WM_N.

 

I'd like to buy a vowel.

 

 

 

 

 

It's absolutely true that fewer than 100% of children born to Muslim parents will become Muslims, and in that sense, the number is overstated; on the other hand, a number of children born to non-Muslim parents will convert, and in that respect, the number is understated. It's called "rounding" or "generalizing." I guess we can never say what the population of any country is, either, since we never know exactly whether someone has died or been born, and if it's not 100%, it's false or inaccurate. And let's throw out most physics, too...we don't know EXACTLY how far the sun is from the earth, or the speed of light.

 

"LOL" was a gross underbid.

[Winstonm]

that fewer than 100% of children born to Muslim parents will become Muslims, and in that sense, the number is overstated

 

Hold on, Johnny, we may have a winner. What exactly was the contention again?

 

No, the suggestion is that fearmongering is never based on simple facts but always on exageration

the number is overstated

 

Yes, a winner. Tell him what he's won, Johnny.....

 

Get a clue, Winston. This is completely false.

It's absolutely true

"LOL" was a gross underbid.

 

It's good to know you don't allow facts to interfere with your biases. ;)

[Lobowolf]

It's good to know you don't allow facts to interfere with your biases. :P

No, the suggestion is that fearmongering is never based on simple facts but always on exageration

the number is overstated

 

Don't let the context undermine your point...talk about letting the facts interfere with your biases. I notice you conveniently leave out the second half of that statement -- again you ignore (I can't say overlook, since I brought it up in the last post, but you cut and pasted around it) the fact that some children NOT born to Muslim parents will convert to Islam; unless that number is less than the number of children born to Muslim parents who do not become Muslim, the numbers won't be exaggerated but UNDERSTATED.

[PassedOut]

Surely Winston's statement is not completely false. Religion is not inherited, but inculcated after birth.

It's both. Studies of twins separated at birth have suggested strongly that there's an inherited component entirely separate from inculcation.

Do I understand correctly that your study showed that identical Christian twins both remain Christian even when one is raised in a Muslim family? And vice versa?

 

If so, where was your study published?

 

Or is the idea that a proclivity to religion runs in families, so that an identical twin from a family with the religion gene becomes religious even when raised in a family without the gene?

[helene_t]

Surely Winston's statement is not completely false. Religion is not inherited, but inculcated after birth.

It's both. Studies of twins separated at birth have suggested strongly that there's an inherited component entirely separate from inculcation.

Do I understand correctly that your study showed that identical Christian twins both remain Christian even when one is raised in a Muslim family? And vice versa?

 

If so, where was your study published?

 

Or is the idea that a proclivity to religion runs in families, so that an identical twin from a family with the religion gene becomes religious even when raised in a family without the gene?

lol, I am getting curious about those twin studies.

 

There was a book called "the God gene" who got a very negative review in Scientific American, sounded like it was just another contribution to the genetics hype in pseudoscience. That's all I have heard about the issue.

 

But I can easily imagine a genetic basis for religious belief that is more specific than a gene "for" believing whatever one is told, for example a gene for the belief in some kind of spirits, a gene for the belief in a non-human source of morality, etc. Would be interesting to see the evidence.

 

Edit: I think it is this overview, from "Where God and science meets" by Patrick McNamara:

 

http://www.geocities.com/helene_thygesen/religion.GIF

[PassedOut]

Thanks, Helene, I found it. Studies from Minnesota, no less! Here is an article: En-twinned lives.

 

SKEPTIC: Next, let's look at religious beliefs and political attitudes. Again, the conventional wisdom is that if you grow up in an affluent area you tend to be a conservative Republican, while in another demographic area you tend to be a liberal Democrat. If you grow up in one home, you'd be Roman Catholic, but in another home you'd be Jewish, or Fundamentalist, or practice no religion at all. Especially in America today, religion and politics are very entwined and very important to how we lead our lives. How much do genes count here?

 

NS: When it comes to religiosity we've shown that degree of commitment and religious activity, regardless of denomination, have a genetic component. But denomination seems not to. One of the most informative and compelling cases is that of Oskar and Jack, two MZ twins, one raised by his father as Jewish in Trinidad, the other by his mother as Catholic in Nazi Germany. When I spoke to Jack a couple of years ago he said that they both recognized that had they been switched they would have grown up with the other's political, religious, and historical understandings.

 

Both realized they were in situations where if the people around them had known their true identity they wouldn't have been very well liked. Jack was in British-ruled Trinidad, hiding his German roots. Oskar was in Nazi Germany hiding his Jewish roots. So they both became fanatical in the sense of embracing the culture and beliefs of their particular country, which I think they would have done if their positions had been switched. It's very interesting to consider that, as Jack put it, "If we had been switched, I would have taken Oskar's place for sure. It doesn't bother me. But I'm glad I'm not on the other side" (p. 77, in Segal, 2007).

Identical twins raised separately gave similar answers to general questions about religion even when raised in families with different belief systems. Fraternal twins not so much.

 

So if you have an identical twin, his or her general answers will tend to be similar to yours. Otherwise, not so much, even among siblings. The specific religion one adopts depends upon environmental influences.

Edited May 15, 2009 by PassedOut

[Winstonm]

This is all you really need to read to understand that the message is hype and fearmongering - from the youtube poster:

 

Islam will overwhelm Christendom unless Christians recognize the demographic realities, begin reproducing again, and share the gospel with Muslims.

 

And then the end of the video says it is a "call to action". A call to action to do what - have a Christian Sex Jihad?

 

Gee, if we only elected the right kind of leaders I bet we could come up with a Final Solution for the Muslim problem

[Fluffy]

Actually childs of muslim growing in Europe are "less muslim", I mean, closer to atheism, not following the sacred book literarilly.

 

Not very Catholic, but that doesn't trouble me much.

[Winstonm]

Actually childs of muslim growing in Europe are "less muslim", I mean, closer to atheism, not following the sacred book literarilly.

 

Not very Catholic, but that doesn't trouble me much.

Thanks, Fluffy. That is interesting to know. It does fit with my long-held belief that the best way to de-escalate this situation is economically, that few who are living a reasonably comfortable middle-class lifestyle want to strap on a bomb and blow themselves up for Allah - dying a martyr's death really interferes with knowing who won Dancing With the Stars.

 

Sure, there are exceptions to everything, and I am aware that Osama bin Laden came from wealth - but then that jackass never could dance. :lol:

[Lobowolf]

have a Christian Sex Jihad?

You might be on to something, as far as recruitment ideas.

[Al_U_Card]

have a Christian Sex Jihad?

You might be on to something, as far as recruitment ideas.

Probably "Christian Children's Crusade" would be more likely, politically correct with many, many layers....lol