mtvesuvius Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 (edited) All Vulnerable at MPs you hold: 9QT74J963AQ82 Partner deals and bids a 13-15 NT, RHO bids 2♠, your bid? You are NOT playing negative doubles on the 2 Level. Double would be penalty.You are playing that Fast Denies. Edited May 10, 2009 by mtvesuvius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmcw Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 I have too much to pass and not enough to force. Therefore I DBL, partner will likely bid a minor and I'm passing for a +. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtvesuvius Posted May 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 I have too much to pass and not enough to force. Therefore I DBL, partner will likely bid a minor and I'm passing for a +. Double would have been penalty... I wanted to double also, but we hadn't talked about Negative Doubles :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryallen Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 I thought this was standard? direct 3♠ showing game force with 4♥? sorry, just noticed the NT point range. Still looks the best option? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmcw Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 I thought this was standard? direct 3♠ showing game force with 4♥? sorry, just noticed the NT point range. Still looks the best option?Looks a bit light to force to game even opposite a 15/16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 Play negative doubles. Next hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mbodell Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 I pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
655321 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 3♠. If partner has hearts, we are happy. If not... well, we are a bit high, but 3NT has not gone down yet, and the alternative seems to be to defend 2♠. BTW, even playing negative doubles after a 1NT opening I don't like to double with a singleton in their suit, because partner will pass the double pretty much whenever he has 4 cards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matmat Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Play negative doubles. Next hand. hehe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbforster Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Play negative doubles. Next hand.[hv=d=n&v=n&s=skt98xxhdajxcqxxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP1N*-(2♠)-? *13-15[/hv] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Play negative doubles. Next hand.[hv=d=n&v=n&s=skt98xxhdajxcqxxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP1N*-(2♠)-? *13-15[/hv] Yes, and? Don't you think that opener will reopen with a X? Wtp unless overcaller has psyched? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbforster Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Ah, I forget some people like to reopen opposite partner's potentially broke pass while forcing to the 3 level Vul. [hv=d=n&v=n&s=sxxxxhxxxdjxxcqxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP1NT*-(2♠)-P-(P)X**-P-? * 13-15** takeout[/hv] For them, they get to play a 4-3 fit (breaking badly) where partner's 4333 bust with xxxx in the overcaller's trump suit can't cause sufficient trouble on defense. Instead of passing out their partial, thank partner for your choice between serving up game with 0-1 doubled overtricks or going down two doubled in your bad minor fit. The point is there are always holes in your methods. Aside from playing the almost magically good Inverted Weasel System to solve all your bidding problems (fast pass = takeout, slow pass = broke, slow X = serious penalty, fast X = suggested penalty), if the perfect treatment for takeout vs penalty hasn't been invented yet, it's because it doesn't exist. So saying you should play the other way just means you pay off to not being able to handle some hands instead of others. In this case, Ken wants negative doubles (I agree), so OP's hand isn't a problem. Then my hand is a problem (invitational strength, with a strong desire to penalize rather than play NT), unless the 1N hand always reopens. Then your problem hand is when you're broke and they've got the balance of power and you're too weak to sit for the double and instead get clobbered running to some bad fit. You just chase the problems around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hanp Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Playing penalty doubles you will have FAR MORE problem hands though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerclee Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Rob if your point is that there are some problems with playing negative doubles, I believe you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 I think he was giving a facetious answer to Kens question (albeit technically there was no question by Ken). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Back to the question: Pass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Rob if your point is that there are some problems with playing negative doubles, I believe you. Yes, I don't think anyone denies this, but as Han says, if you don't play -ve Xs there will be more problems of a different nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben42 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Original question: Pass, and agree negative Dbl. Ah, I forget some people like to reopen opposite partner's potentially broke pass while forcing to the 3 level Vul. Dealer: NorthVul: N/SScoring: IMP ♠ xxxx♥ xxx♦ Jxx♣ Qxx 1NT*-(2♠)-P-(P)X**-P-? * 13-15** takeout For them, they get to play a 4-3 fit (breaking badly) where partner's 4333 bust with xxxx in the overcaller's trump suit can't cause sufficient trouble on defense. Instead of passing out their partial, thank partner for your choice between serving up game with 0-1 doubled overtricks or going down two doubled in your bad minor fit. In practice this rarely happens, as the auction tends to go either 1NT (Dbl) or 1NT (2♠) p (something strong) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Play negative doubles. Next hand.[hv=d=n&v=n&s=skt98xxhdajxcqxxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP1N*-(2♠)-? *13-15[/hv] This comes up a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Tactically speaking, the 2♠ overcall won the pot. Not playing negative doubles, with this hand you have two choices: 1. pass, and hope this goes down 2.2. bid 3♠, and hope pard has hearts and you make 4♥. Since opps are at their correct Total Tricks level, I'd choose option 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbforster Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 I think he was giving a facetious answer to Kens question (albeit technically there was no question by Ken).Right, although i didn't realize I gave the wrong answer until Hog pointed out the issue with opener's balancing double. In any case takeout doubles are my preference as well, although playing a weaker NT (13-15 vs 15-17) does make it a little more risky for opener to balance back into the auction than with a stronger one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 You have no practical choice but to pass. Any bid is an overbid. It may work out fine - partner may have a 4333 hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louisg Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 No one has mentioned it yet, but I thought it was fairly common practice when playing penalty doubles in this auction to use 2NT as the rough equivalent of a negative double. Partner knows you have some values but not enough in their suit to make a penalty double, and can sit or pull as his hand dictates. Of course, this is incompatable with lebensohl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 No one has mentioned it yet, but I thought it was fairly common practice when playing penalty doubles in this auction to use 2NT as the rough equivalent of a negative double. Partner knows you have some values but not enough in their suit to make a penalty double, and can sit or pull as his hand dictates. Of course, this is incompatable with lebensohl. To be honest, I have never seen anyone play this. I also think it is unsound as you will often end up too high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 Pass. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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