Muiderberg

[Mirjam_3]

Hi dear ones,

 

Could u plse help me?

 

Introduction of the question:

 

Mostly i learned bridge by playing online so i learned the sayc system first and played not much in ftf bridge.

 

Last year i became member of a bridge club in my home town the Hague. It is the oldest bridge club of the Hague and if possible most members are even older. Nevertheless they know how to play bridge!

 

I had to study dutch acol more since i cd not find sayc partners there.

 

So i learned conventions like muiderberg and multi.

(muiderberg is a convention which u can use if u hold a 5 card major and at least four of a minor, u open 2s for 5 spades and 2h for 5 hearts)

 

One day i was holding a hand with 6 hearts and a 4 card minor. I had to chose (i thought) between multi to show a 6 card major and muiderberg showing a 2-suited hand. I decided to open muiderberg so i bid 2hearts.

 

When an older man - being my opp - found out i had 6 hearts he asked the director to rule and the director did.

 

I was very amazed since i was used to onlineplay and i never heard of strict conventions since i saw sooooooooooo many strange things and nobody ever seems to worry much...

 

After the event this man came to me at the bar and he said to me:

'U can play bridge and now i will force u to do it the right way.'

 

I answered: 'I thought it was more important for my partner to know i had major and minor than to let him know i have a 6 card.'

 

The man explained: 'Multi is not stricly prescribed but muiderberg is a very strict convention and u r only allowed to use it if u hold 5 card major.'

 

In another thread i saw the muiderberg named in a case were the opener also had a 6 cards and i waited a few days to watch the comments that certainly were going to be made... and now i see.. no comment at all...

 

 

 

 

My question:

 

IF SOMEONE USES MUIDERBERG WITH A 6 CARD MAJOR HOW SHOULD I RULE?

 

 

And plse use the big book... i really want to know...

[the hog]

This guy was talking absolute nonsense! This is typical of someone who claims to know better than everyone else, but in reality knows nothing.

 

" muiderberg is a very strict convention and u r only allowed to use it if u hold 5 card major."

 

I would ask this guy where this rule is written down, please show it to me.

[aisha759]

Hello dear one B)

I don't have the big book, and I am no qualified director... so here it goes:

 

If you bid 2 hearts (muidiwhatever) showing 5 and 4+ you obviously alert; and when opps ask and you answer correctly ( 5+ hearts and 4+ of a minor)then, IMHO you have given correct information... isn't that what ruling is about? Not misleading opps, so they don't get damaged? (you may mislead your pd though if he/she has no idea and is sitting with 2h)...

 

On the other hand, as The Hog mentioned, it IS a very strict convention and it does show 5-5 (or 4) depends on agreement.... and if that's how alert is explained, then ruling goes against the 2H bidder should be punished..

 

 

But the question is about ruling, not about whether it's the correct bid or not, so in my book (the small one) I wouldn't rule against the 2h opener if the alert has been explained properly...

 

Don't take my word for it though, as i am talking logic, and not from a rule oriented decision... <_<

 

Have a nice day

 

Aisha

[the hog]

"On the other hand, as The Hog mentioned, it IS a very strict convention and it does show 5-5 (or 4) depends on agreement.... and if that's how alert is explained, then ruling goes against the 2H bidder should be punished.."

 

Uh.... I didn't say that.

[Rado]

Hi all,

Nice situation:-)

 

1. The rule as TD is totally funny and wrong. Suppose next time someone opened weak 2 with 7 cards, seems he must be punished again? and what about opening 3♦ preemtive with 6 or 8 cards?

 

2. The statement not to open Dutch 2 with 6 cards Major but to open Multi is very useful partnership agreement. For more than 8 years many friend pairs use it and the results are quite good. Statistically is more important to know the 6th Major card than possible 6-4 (together with 5-4, 5-5). Of course when 6Major+5minor then opening 2 suited bid

 

So I supposed TD rule as if he was writing a bidding book:-)))))

 

Regards

Rado

[Mirjam_3]

i did say that multi or a weak 2 was a different thing... this question was about Muiderberg and not another bid... again i asked a dutch player and he tells me how this goes in ftf bridge:

 

---

 

Het is verboden Muiderberg te openen met een 6-kaart en/of zonder 4 kaart laag.

Tenzij uitdrukkelijk vermeld op de systeemkaart!!!

Die vermelding komt vrijwel nooit voor. Dus straffen. Meestal wordt een arbitrale score gegeven van 0 tot 40%.

 

---

 

My poor tranlation is:

 

It is forbidden to open Muiderberg with a 6-card and/or without 4 card minor.

Unless very well announced on system card!!!

Such an announcement does nearly exit. So punish. Mostly an adjustment is made from 0 till 40%

 

 

So again i ask u: Isnot anyone out there who thinks a td on the net sd punish if a player opens Muiderberg with a 6 card major? ;)

[slothy]

Dear Marjoram,

 

As Hoggy said, this guy is talking out of his you-know-what. He didnt actually say that, but i am sure it could be paraphrased as such.

 

There is nothing wrong at all in bidding 2♥ with a 6-4 hand, although i agree with Rado that it is better perhaps to inform partner of your 6 card major rather than misinform him that you have 5.

 

It is certainly NOT forbidden to open a 2 major with 6 cards. After all, you are deceiving your partner as well as your oppponents. As long as it is stated as 5+ 4+ (and even if it wasnt ie 5♥-4+♣/♦ !!! nothing wrong in bending the rules) as long as your partner is not privy to any information.

 

I am quite sure there is no rule endorsed by Dutch Bridge that Muide-whatever MUST be opened with 5 cards....

 

Seems he may have misdefended and was just trying to get an adjustment.

 

PS if you play at the Hague, i hope this guy not in your Government and adopts the same attitude to Social Policy as he does to his bridge

 

Lots of hugs

 

Alex

[Gerben47]

In the Netherlands the term "Muiderberg" is used to signify exactly a 5-card major and 4 or more in a minor. If you regularly open it with a 6-card major you cannot call it Muiderberg.

 

So anyway, whenever people deviate the director has to assume it's not the first time and assume deliberate misinformation and you get awarded a point penalty. They do the same for Ghestem mistakes.

 

Gerben

[csdenmark]

Muiderberg - Muiderbergh - The Dutch Two Bids - Lucas Two Bids - The origin of the Muiderberg or Muiderbergh Two Bids, which is sometimes spelled differently and which is sometimes referred to as The Dutch Twos and the Lucas Two Bids, is the village of Muiderbergh, The Netherlands, which lies near Amsterdam. The concept was devised by Mr. Onno Janssens and Mr. Willem Beogem, who both lived in this village, and was based on Weak Two openings. The origin of the Lucas Two Bids is unknown and the original definition was that it represented a 5-card suit either in Diamonds, Hearts, or Spades with a second 4-card side suit in the other Major if the opening Two Bid was in either of the Major suits. The high card point range was between 6 and 10 high card points. In general, the responses follow the same pattern as the Muiderbergh Two Bids.

 

Muiderberg Two - Muiderberger Two - Muiderbergh Two - An explanation of the Muiderberg convention in Dutch. Any translation would be appreciated.

 

Muiderberg Two - Muiderberger Two - Muiderbergh Two - Translated in English and contributed by Mr. Bart Moonen in August 2003. A description of the conventional method of opening on the two level and the ensuing responses, plus defense against overcalls and provisions for slam attempt.

 

Muiderberg Two - Muiderberger Two - Muiderbergh Two - Translated in English and contributed by Christine Karman in December 2003. This translation provides a description of the conventional method of opening on the two level and the ensuing responses.

 

Defense Against Muiderberger Two - Muiderberg - Muiderbergh Defense Mechanism - An explanation of the Muiderberg - Muiderbergh Two Bids Defense Mechanism in the native language of Dutch. Any translation would be appreciated.

 

Defense Against Muiderberger Two - Muiderberg - Muiderbergh Defense Mechanism - Translated and contributed by Christine Karman in December 2003. This is the English translation of the web page in Dutch for the Muiderberg Defense Mechanism listed above.

 

As there are several links in the text - I think best to look up the information at the web-site. http://www.bridgeguys.com/MGlossary/GlossM.html

 

The 'big book' - ACBL Dictionary - has not Muiderberg Convention.

 

--------------------------------

 

Here you find Muiderberg: http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?count...x=57&submit.y=6

 

Gerben has an excellent image of Muiderberg Castle - I cannot find my copy.

[helene_t]

It is true that Muiderberg means exactly a 5-card major and 4+ in any minor. Like it or not, all serious Dutch TDs agree on that. It may be different for Polish Two, it may be different in other countries, I don't know, but the Dutch rules are very clear.

 

This does not imply that the same strictness applies to other conventions - that an overcall on a four-card must not be called an overcall, and so on. Muiderberg is governed by particular rules, and they are very strict.

 

The fact that this can be an issue at all, shows that you should not explain a call in terms of a convention name, but in terms of what it means. If you mean "exactly 5", say "exactly 5". If you mean 5+, say 5+.

 

Of course, if you want to play 5+, it's fine, just don't call it Muiderberg. Also, if you want to depart from a convention you can do it as long as it is equaly shocking to your partner as to the opponents. But if you open a 6-4 2♥ with your regular partner, the TD will probably not believe that it isn't a secret agreement.

[kgr]

It is forbidden to open Muiderberg with a 6-card and/or without 4 card minor.

Unless very well announced on system card!!!

Such an announcement does nearly exit. So punish. Mostly an adjustment is made from 0 till 40%

 

If playing Muiderberg and multi and you get a 6-4 hand then you will have to choose if you open Muiderberg or multi. Probably you will only open Muiderberg if the six card Major is bad and you want to consider it as a 5 card.

 

For me this looks like a hand evaluation decision if you open Muiderberg with 6-4 and I would not give a penalty for it except if you do it regurarly.

 

If the rules in NL are that strict then put on your convention card:

"With weak 6-4 we can open Muidergberg or multi, decision depends on strengths of the suits."

[slothy]

I think some people have missed the point. I was not arguing bout the systemic merits of Muideberg, or whether to call it by something else.....

 

If you REGULARLY bid Muideberg with 6-4 distributions, then YES DONT call it Muideberg...

 

If you do it once in a blue moon (I personally hve never seen one: i have seen a white one though) for whatever reason then I personally do not think, imvho, that the opener should be penalised (this is what the thread started out as, btw).

 

A convention is there as a guide-line and a point of reference not as a tablet of stone, to be used and not abused (with a FEW universally-acceptable exceptions).

 

As an example, i play Acol with weak NT (12-14). On the rare occasion, i may open with a (good) 11 count, but not often enough to justify changing my CC.

 

People tell me "if u open a NT with 11 points, put it on CC"..normally coz they got a bad board...ironically when they get a good one, ie played wrong way round, they are smugly quiet....grrrr

 

So next time i played against this person alerted 1NT as "11-14: last opened with an 11 count 3 and a half months yesterday at 2:34 pm"

 

It is silly and pedantic and stupid. What DOES really P*TH me off, and really why i dont agree with it, is people ONLY seem to complain when they get a BAD board, otherwise they keep quiet and see no reason to point out your deviations from system when they look at score-card and see a gain for themeslves...hypocritical and nauseous.

 

(Amen)

 

PS My suggestion, Marjoram, is to play them at their own game....

 

INVENT A CONVENTION CALLED MULTIBERG :) ;) which is a hybrid of the 2 systems you mentioned ..you never know you might become famous like Stayman, Crowhurst, Gerber, Mr Notrump or the Sikh expert Mr Balan Singh

[aisha759]

Correction!! Excuse me Slothy dear :o that was Ms. Notrump for your information, that' why it is so diverse and "changeant" :)

 

Lovingly,

 

Aisha aka Ms. Ruffing Finesse ;) (laughing at my own joke, pathetic!!)

[mink]

Hi Mirjam,

 

each country can have own system regulations. They may be different according to the kind of tourney played, e.g. club, regional, national. As I am German, I do not know the Dutch regulations of course. Lets asume there is such a regulation for Muiderberg. Now there are 2 possible ways the regulations might state how the case should be handled:

 

1. Automatical Average Minus (40%) whenever the opening is used with a hand not suitable, or the result reached at the table if it is worse than 40% for the offending side. In this case, this should inclucde forbidding to psyche with Muiderberg.

 

2. Cosider it a misinformation of opps if Muiderberg was on the card and or explained but the hand of the opener does not meet the requirements.

 

In the second case, there cannot be an automatical artificial score. Instead, the director has to judge if the innocent side was damaged by the misinformation. He has to look for a way how this might have happened. If he finds one or more, he adjusts to the best result for the innocent side that might have reasonably been reached if they knew what the real agreement was.

 

However, I do not think the dircector can automatically asume that your partner knew you would deviate from the Muiderberg convention. If your partner knows the correct definition of Muiderberg and did not play with you frequently, this assumption should not hold, as he was not aware that you didn't know the regulations. But if you both thought that it was legal to have a 6-card-major when opening Muiderberg, then you have a better knowledge of your system than opps could possibly have when hearing "Muiderberg".

 

But if even if the director thinks that your opps did not have the correct infomation about your version of Muiderberg, it is not very likely that they were damaged by that lack of information, so in most cases the score will problably be left unchanged.

 

This whole thing is not about punishment, but cares for the innocent side that there is no disadvantage caused by a possible misinformation. Punishment would only come to effect if you deliberately misinformed your opps. Director should be able to prove that this is true. In this case the score would be adjusted as usual but you would be awarded an additional "procedural penalty".

 

My personal oppinion is that if Dutch regulations really say that Muilderberg is always exactly 5 cards in a major plus a minor, this is not a good idea. It should be plossible to slightly deviate from the convention (e.g. bad 6-card major suit) without being acused to have and undisclosed agreement with your partner.

 

 

Karl

[mishovnbg]

Hi Helene!

The problem is if you repeat something many times, it will not become Truth, even you don't like it ;) . It is true that conventions are designed for some reason, but normally their usage is much more wide at table than basic understanding of beginner. Normally any convention about distribution show only min length for suits, leave longer suits for player's decision, not for director's one :o . Here is one link from your beloved Germany, strange, explained as 5+-4+ :):

http://home.nikocity.de/kwiese/konvent/Dutch.htm

 

Hi kgr! Welcome to BBO forum!

 

'If playing Muiderberg and multi and you get a 6-4 hand then you will have to choose if you open Muiderberg or multi. Probably you will only open Muiderberg if the six card Major is bad and you want to consider it as a 5 card.

 

For me this looks like a hand evaluation decision if you open Muiderberg with 6-4 and I would not give a penalty for it except if you do it regurarly.

 

If the rules in NL are that strict then put on your convention card:

"With weak 6-4 we can open Muidergberg or multi, decision depends on strengths of the suits." '

Most of good players and TDs will agree with obove written, as well as I. This is only reasonable way of judgement in our versicoloured bridge community.

 

Misho

[Mirjam_3]

Bridge

Monthly magazine dutch bridge federation

Number 4

April 2004

For the dutch players: it is on page 28

 

In this magazine of the dutch bridge federation there is a page about ruling every month.

 

 

Arbitrage (i suppose ruling is the english word for arbitrage)

 

Translation is made by me so not excellent

 

 

-

 

Muiderheuvel, Muiderduin?

 

"We know now the variant of the Muiderberg, named the Muiderheuvel)* The Muiderheuvel is an opening with a 5 card major but with no more than a 3 card minor. U are allowed to play this IF you dont call it Muiderberg: That is a protected 'term' (maybe i sd say term/phrase/notification - i am not sure about the english word for the dutch word 'term') for exactly (exactly written in italian) a 5 card major and a 4+ card minor."

 

)* note made by me for you: a 'berg' is dutch for a mountain while a 'heuvel' is a hill)

 

End of quote

 

-

 

Next he gives an example of ruling in a case a player opened with not exactly the Muiderberg. It was an example of holding a 4 card major so i wont tell it you since i talk here about the 6 card major.

 

My conclusion:

 

In Holland it is very common to rule if not excatly 5 card major is in the hand of the Muiderberg-opener.

-

[Free]

The "MUIDERBERG"-convention is as follows:

2M = 6-11 HCP with EXACTLY 5 card M and at least a 4 card m

 

So if your 2M can contain a 6 card Major, you're not playing muiderberg, it's as simple as that, and the rulings are according as if wrong information was given.

 

I NEVER give the explanation "muiderberg", since it's too restrictive imo. I open these hands with less than 6 HCP. I just say what I can have, just to avoid similar problems...

[helene_t]

The problem is if you repeat something many times, it will not become Truth, even you don't like it :) . It is true that conventions are designed for some reason, but normally their usage is much more wide at table than basic understanding of beginner.

Hi Misho,

 

I think we agree, maybe I should have put it more gently. Of course, regulations give room for individual perculiarities, such as bidding creatively due to the principle of preparedness.

 

However, a 6-4 distribution does not pose a judgement problem when playing Multi/Muiderberg. It is, in principle, a straight-forward Multi (or normal opening, or 3-opening). Any other agreement must not be called Multi/Muiderberg. And then the exception:[hv=d=s&v=e&s=sh976543d32ckq432]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv] If you evaluate this hand as a 5-5, have it your way. But it really has to be something that extreme. My personal opinion is that TDs should not bother since everybody knows that the term "Muiderberg" could mean anything.

[Free]

My personal opinion is that TDs should not bother since everybody knows that the term "Muiderberg" could mean anything.

There you're wrong, the term "Muiderberg" is an exact description of a convention, as I mentioned above. Like the classic Stayman which promisses at least one 4 card Major. If you don't play it EXACTLY, then you just don't play it... If you play acol, you don't have to open 1X on a 3-card do you? Same principle imo.

 

Btw, you can just avoid problems without problem by just saying "weak with 5+M, 4+m", and nobody will call directors :) Playing against people who don't know Muiderberg you always have to explain what it is anyway, and playing against people who know the convention will complain because you don't play muiderberg.