simple question

[bhindi]

1♣ (2♠) dbl (p)

3♦

 

 

Does 3♦ show extra values?

[babalu1997]

3d, no

 

but , if the 2 sapdes is weak, the dbl after a preempt shows extra values, bid slowly because partner has a rebid

[bhindi]

Yes, 2 spades was weak.

 

Screens were in use so bidding slowly will not help much.

[se12sam]

Screens were in use so bidding slowly will not help much.

I think the "bidding slowly" was to imply that there is no need to jump bid; and not related to speed of making a bid :)

[Codo]

Whether or not 3 ♦ shows extra depends.

 

Most people here in the forum claim that the double just show hearts. In this case, 3 Diamond is a high reverse and shows extras.

 

A few people have a gadget like Lebensohl in this situation, where all weak hands must first limit themselves with 2 NT, there 3 daiamond shows extras.

 

For the rest of the world, 3 ♦ just shows 5 clubs and 4 diamonds

[karlson]

Extras for me, I think that there is no alternative to double of 2♠ with x KQxxx xxx Qxxx, which means that partner really can't go above 3♣ safely. I would play 2n as scrambling.

[Old York]

Using normal methods, I cannot see how 3♦ can be seen as anything other than a weak "denial" bid. It simply denies the ability to make any other bid

There is no guarantee that the bid even shows a 4 card diamond suit

What would opener rebid with any 13 point 3334 hand?

With any strong hand unsuitable for notrump, opener should bid 3♠ to deny Heart support

 

Tony

[paulg]

This is an important auction for a regular partnership to discuss, not only opener's rebid but also the values required for the double.

 

In a strong notrump system I think the initial double should be kept up to strength, that shows a hand that wants to compete at the three level opposite a balanced 12-14 points. This means that it is playable for opener's 2NT rebid to not promise a spade stop, but just shows the weak notrump hand.

 

But I still play that 3♦ denies extras.

 

p

[helene_t]

Agree with Karlson.

[mcphee]

I take strong exception to the words the 3D can be a 3 card suit. That is an incredible position to take.

When responder makes a neg dble they need to prepare themselves to hear the word pass from partners from time to time, competing to the 3 level opposite what can be a weak NT requires values. Although we try to be aggressive when short of S, we can not throw all caution in the wind and dble with a K and Q.

Should the opening hand start responding in 3 card suits at the 3 level I hope the great shuffler takes pity, your opponents will not.

[Old York]

there is no alternative to double of 2♠ with x KQxxx xxx Qxxx

I would hate to encourage beginners and novices to double with such a hand, better to wait and see if opener can re-open

 

Tony

[Old York]

I take strong exception to the words the 3D can be a 3 card suit...

what would you re-bid with ♠xxx ♥Qxx ♦Kxx ♣AKxx ?

 

Any bid you make is a lie, and it is better to lie in a minor than in a major or notrump. Pass does not appear to be an option, oppo make game

 

Tony

 

p.s. I would never be in this position, I open 12-14 no-trump B)

[hanp]

Extras. Tony's hand is a normal 2NT bid.

[Lobowolf]

Why do reverses show extras? Because you might end up a level higher. Responder doesn't promise diamonds for the negative double; he might have hearts and club support. Is he supposed to pull to 4♣ with a minimum 2-level negative double opposite a minimum opener?

 

3♦ shows extras. If you have a weak hand with the minors that isn't suitable for a NT rebid, open 1♦ and rebid clubs (or agree to particularized gadgetry). If you opened 1♣ with a minimum because you intended to rebid clubs, then rebid 3♣, not 3♦.

[Codo]

Why do reverses show extras? Because you might end up a level higher. Responder doesn't promise diamonds for the negative double; he might have hearts and club support. Is he supposed to pull to 4♣ with a minimum 2-level negative double opposite a minimum opener?

 

3♦ shows extras. If you have a weak hand with the minors that isn't suitable for a NT rebid, open 1♦ and rebid clubs (or agree to particularized gadgetry). If you opened 1♣ with a minimum because you intended to rebid clubs, then rebid 3♣, not 3♦.

Really amazing to find all these 5-2 fits at the three level when partners doubles with 2452 and you bid 3 club on you 2245 hands.

 

It is getting even better when you decide to open all 4/4 hands in the minors with 1 club because you like to have your transfer responses as often as possible.

 

But we had been there before, there are strong opinions about the fact whether a double should show just the other major or something different but no facts.

[Echognome]

Really amazing to find all these 5-2 fits at the three level when partners doubles with 2452 and you bid 3 club on you 2245 hands.

I guess you missed the suggestion of several others above that you bid 2NT scrambling with such hands? Seems easy enough to me:

 

1♣ - (2♠) - Dbl - (P);

2NT - (P) - ?

 

Now when responder has a 2452 he bids... drum roll... 3♦.

 

Now on the other side of the coin, do you suggest opener bid the same way with the following two hands. If not, how does he bid them?

 

A: ♠xx ♥Ax ♦AQJx ♣AQTxx

B: ♠xx ♥Ax ♦QJxx ♣KQTxx

[Codo]

No, I do not miss this, in fact I mentioned this in my first posting.

 

There are some problems which you can solve when X shows just hearts and some new problems you get. Most are solvable when you add some extra gedgets.

(Like 2 NT to show a weak hand f.e.)

 

But the same is true for any other approach for this double- whether it promises all other suits or whatever.

[Lobowolf]

Why do reverses show extras?  Because you might end up a level higher.  Responder doesn't promise diamonds for the negative double; he might have hearts and club support.  Is he supposed to pull to 4♣ with a minimum 2-level negative double opposite a minimum opener?

 

3♦ shows extras.  If you have a weak hand with the minors that isn't suitable for a NT rebid, open 1♦ and rebid clubs (or agree to particularized gadgetry).  If you opened 1♣ with a minimum because you intended to rebid clubs, then rebid 3♣, not 3♦.

Really amazing to find all these 5-2 fits at the three level when partners doubles with 2452 and you bid 3 club on you 2245 hands.

 

It is getting even better when you decide to open all 4/4 hands in the minors with 1 club because you like to have your transfer responses as often as possible.

 

But we had been there before, there are strong opinions about the fact whether a double should show just the other major or something different but no facts.

When partner doubles with 2-4-5-2 and you bid 3♣ with 2-2-4-5, he corrects to diamonds, because prior to bidding 3♣, you opened a diamond. So after "finding" your 5-2 fit, you play your 5-4 fit at the 3-level.

 

What's amazing is when he's 2-4-2-5 and you first bid 1♣, then 3♦.

[jdonn]

3♦ shows extras, and to think otherwise is insane unless you play the double promises diamonds, in which case your definition of double is what's insane.

[mikeh]

3♦ shows extras, and to think otherwise is insane unless you play the double promises diamonds, in which case your definition of double is what's insane.

I agree... and it is no answer to argue that the 'double shows hearts' school is limited to some of the posters.... take a look at who espouses this: it will include ALL the experts! I don't know of a serious player who would assert that 3♦ doesn't show extras...I am sorry if this offends anyone, but that's my view of the probable skill level of anyone who thinks that the double has to deliver diamonds as well as hearts.

 

BTW, this situation is a good advertisement for weak notrump openings, since opener can rebid 2N with a balanced 15-17, not worrying about stoppers because we are in a gf after the negative double of 2♠ opposite a strong notrump... and we have the 3-level in which to sort out the details.

[Old York]

The OP asked does 3♦ show extra values after:

1♣-(2♠)-x-p-3♦

 

if it does, then 3♥ instead would also show extra values, but this is nonsense

1♣-(2♠)-x-p-3♥ shows a minimum

 

Playing Acol 12-14 with 4 card majors greatly simplifies these situations

Playing Sayc 15-17 with 5 card majors makes it imperative that you know how to use negative doubles correctly. Sayc tends to use the 1♣ opening as a catch-all bid, but this has the added problem that it invites overcalls

 

If you tend to use negative doubles just to show the other major, then there will be times when your partner cannot find an honest response. This may work out ok with regular partnerships who have discussed these situations, but pickup novice pairs should avoid this practice. The negative double should show all unbid suits in the same way that any take-out double should show all unbid suits, especially if minimum

 

e.g. The sequence 1♦-(2♣)-x must show both majors and some tollerance for Diamonds (unless very strong)

 

If you double (negative or normal take-out), you must be prepared for any response

 

Tony

[Lobowolf]

e.g. The sequence 1♦-(2♣)-x must show both majors and some tollerance for Diamonds (unless very strong)

 

Tony

Strongly disagree. Unless you have a better bid than double to show the hand of moderate strength that has one 4-card major.

[jdonn]

Playing Sayc 15-17 with 5 card majors makes it imperative that you know how to use negative doubles correctly.

....

The negative double should show all unbid suits in the same way that any take-out double should show all unbid suits, especially if minimum

LOL

[Echognome]

<snip>

e.g. The sequence 1♦-(2♣)-x must show both majors and some tollerance for Diamonds (unless very strong)

 

If you double (negative or normal take-out), you must be prepared for any response

 

Tony

Tony,

 

I don't believe this is the modern style. You may want to read a thread I started awhile back. It seems that there are two approaches that are in common practice nowadays. One approach is that double followed by a new suit at the same level is NF. E.g. 1♦ - (2♣) - Dbl - (P); 2♥ - (P) - 2♠ = NF.

 

Another approach is to play transfers in these auctions.

 

Otherwise, you will face serious problems competing for the partscore.

 

Anyway, read the thread for yourself here:

 

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...ouble+lebensohl

 

-Echognome

[Old York]

I don't believe this is the modern style.  You may want to read a thread I started awhile back.  It seems that there are two approaches...

-Echognome

Thanks for the link, very helpful :)

 

However, this is Beginner/Intermediate and I think I made it clear that I was referring to methods suitable for them to use

 

The actual example I quoted was from a very well respected text book, altho I doubt that the author uses these recomended methods in high level money games

 

Trying to give advanced methods to novices is a bit like handing a live hand grenade to a child :lol:

 

Tony