This may be the wrong forum

[hanp]

[hv=d=n&v=b&s=sxxxh10xxxd8xxcakx]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1D - (Dbl) - ??[/hv]

 

Thoughts?

[Mosene]

1 NT.

[hrothgar]

1♥ (Same as I would have bid without the double)

 

Not nearly strong enough for XX

1N isn't remotely appealing with two suits wide open

 

Raising Diamonds doesn't appeal to me with a sterile 3=4=3=3

[JLOL]

edit

[Apollo81]

1♥

[cherdanno]

edit

Agree with Justin.

[Echognome]

I think I'm going to pass here. I really don't want to emphasize hearts that are headed by the 10 and also given I have 4=3=3=3 shape. Of course I would have responded 1♥ had RHO passed, but given RHO's double, I don't see why that makes me want to play in hearts more.

[karlson]

I pass.

[jdonn]

1♥, second choice 1NT.

[mikeh]

1♥

 

Frankly don't understand the point of this. 1N is silly, positionally and on point count. Pass is not much better.. why can't this hand belong to us, in notrump, diamonds, clubs or even, yes, hearts?

[Lobowolf]

1♥, no close second choice for me.

[JLOL]

Pass

[bid_em_up]

1♥

 

Frankly don't understand the point of this. 1N is silly, positionally and on point count. Pass is not much better.. why can't this hand belong to us, in notrump, diamonds, clubs or even, yes, hearts?

Pass.

 

Frankly, I don't understand the point of this. 1H is silly. If the hand "belongs" to us, its going to require partner making another call. Why can't we find our spot (assuming we have one) after hearing what LHO has to say, when we are better placed, and what, if anything, partner has to say after LHO has bid?

 

If the hand belongs to us in diamonds or clubs or NT, it is going to require another bid from partner, so passing now is unlikely to hurt us, if this is the case.

 

If the hand belongs to them in spades (or clubs or NT), bidding one heart does absolutely nothing to prevent it, plus it has the detrimental factor of likely getting partner off to a terrible lead. Additionally, by bidding hearts now, we prevent them from ending in their 4-3 or 4-4 heart fit which was another one of our places to possibly go plus.

 

At least 1N has some "preemptive" merits, but they are not enough to convince me to bid it.

 

jmoo.

[Phil]

1♥.

 

I don't understand a pass and I certainly don't understand 1N. Why can't this be our hand for 2♥? Why can't this be our hand for 1N or 2♦ if pard wants to bid it? 1N distorts. Pass makes it hard to catch up.

[jdonn]

If the hand "belongs" to us, its going to require partner making another call. Why can't we find our spot (assuming we have one) after hearing what LHO has to say, when we are better placed, and what, if anything, partner has to say after LHO has bid?

This is the part I don't get. Why does partner have to be able to make another bid on his own for the hand to belong to us? And just what are you expecting to do on most auctions at a low level the come back to you where you are so glad you passed first?

[mikeh]

1♥

 

Frankly don't understand the point of this. 1N is silly, positionally and on point count. Pass is not much better.. why can't this hand belong to us, in notrump, diamonds, clubs or even, yes, hearts?

Pass.

 

Frankly, I don't understand the point of this. 1H is silly. If the hand "belongs" to us, its going to require partner making another call. Why can't we find our spot (assuming we have one) after hearing what LHO has to say, when we are better placed, and what, if anything, partner has to say after LHO has bid?

 

If the hand belongs to us in diamonds or clubs or NT, it is going to require another bid from partner, so passing now is unlikely to hurt us, if this is the case.

 

If the hand belongs to them in spades (or clubs or NT), bidding one heart does absolutely nothing to prevent it, plus it has the detrimental factor of likely getting partner off to a terrible lead. Additionally, by bidding hearts now, we prevent them from ending in their 4-3 or 4-4 heart fit which was another one of our places to possibly go plus.

 

At least 1N has some "preemptive" merits, but they are not enough to convince me to bid it.

 

jmoo.

Frankly, I do understand the intent to be funny, but I don't understand the rest of the post ;)

 

I agree that for the hand to belong to us, partner needs to make another bid: what I don't understand is why you think he will/should do so, on a myriad of hands where the contract belongs to us, after we pass.

 

Say we have a 4-4 heart fit... give partner something radical and weird such as xx KQJx AQJxx xx... we pass and over 1♠ your partner does what? Hmmm.

 

Oh well, maybe you plan to reopen with 2♥?

 

As for 1N our way, after my pass.. surely he'll bid it over their 1♠, after our pass, if he holds QJx Kx AKJxx xxx? No? Too bad... maybe he was afraid you held no values for your pass. Or maybe he knows how to play bridge, and is aware that 1N shows 18-19 hcp?

 

Of course, maybe your plan is to reopen with 1N yourself :)

 

Of course, if your reaction to the start of this auction is that we have no right to compete, then by all means pass. At least you will avoid that dreaded bad lead... maybe.

[hanp]

Maybe this is moronic and a sign of an inexperienced bridge player but if I decided to pass and the auction continued as follows:

 

1D - Dbl - p - 1S

p - p - ??

 

then I would double.

[Lobowolf]

But when 1♠ gets raised to 2♠, or 2♠ is bid directly by LHO, you get that seller's remorse that partner doesn't know you have a few points and a few hearts.

[mikeh]

Maybe this is moronic and a sign of an inexperienced bridge player but if I decided to pass and the auction continued as follows:

 

1D - Dbl - p - 1S

p - p - ??

 

then I would double.

Neither I nor you nor anyone else thinks that is the least bit moronic ;) It seems like the obvious choice if you decide, originally, to pass. And while I still think that the original pass is wrong, to the point that I wouldn't do it, I do think it is the 2nd best call and as with virtually all 2nd best calls, it could easily work out better, on any given hand, than the call that I consider to be obvious.

 

Of course, you are assuming that the auction goes perfectly for you. Would you double 1N by LHO? Or 2♣ by LHO?

 

I confess, I had assumed that your title meant that you at least considered placing this question in the B/I forum precisely because the standard treatment is to respond to partner's 1minor bid, after a double, almost as if the double had not happend... and wouldn't we all bid 1♥ then?

[hanp]

Of course, you are assuming that the auction goes perfectly for you. Would you double 1N by LHO? Or 2♣ by LHO?

 

I wouldn't mind defending 1NT. Everybody is vulnerable, I am less worried than you are about them getting to play 1NT instead of us. Over 2C I would also pass, I am 4333 and all my points are in clubs, everybody is vulnerable. This doesn't seem to be a big problem. 2S coming back to us is fairly likely and is what I would least like to hear.

 

The reason I was talking about 1S coming back to us is this part of your post:

 

Say we have a 4-4 heart fit... give partner something radical and weird such as xx KQJx AQJxx xx... we pass and over 1♠ your partner does what? Hmmm.

 

Oh well, maybe you plan to reopen with 2♥?

 

As for 1N our way, after my pass.. surely he'll bid it over their 1♠, after our pass, if he holds QJx Kx AKJxx xxx? No? Too bad... maybe he was afraid you held no values for your pass. Or maybe he knows how to play bridge, and is aware that 1N shows 18-19 hcp?

 

Of course, maybe your plan is to reopen with 1N yourself tongue.gif

 

It seemed to me that these scenarios aren't as bad as you made them seem.

[JLOL]

I confess, I had assumed that your title meant that you at least considered placing this question in the B/I forum precisely because the standard treatment is to respond to partner's 1minor bid, after a double, almost as if the double had not happend... and wouldn't we all bid 1♥ then?

Why is this a standard treatment? Surely there are some hands where you would bid over 1 of a minor to keep the auction open because you might have a game or a better fit, but you would pass after the double (because if you have a game partner will still bid). I daresay that "everyone" would respond if the CA was the CQ after a pass, but "everyone" would pass after the double.

 

I also think it is fairly common to bypass weak 4 card majors and bid 1N on certain hand types because even if you find a 4-4 fit it is likely trumps are breaking badly, and they're all on your right (not good when you have no honors).

 

It seems obvious to me that it is a different situation after a double and we shouldn't bury our heads in the sand and pretend there wasn't one.

[hanp]

I confess, I had assumed that your title meant that you at least considered placing this question in the B/I forum precisely because the standard treatment is to respond to partner's 1minor bid, after a double, almost as if the double had not happend... and wouldn't we all bid 1♥ then?

I wasn't sure if this hand was interesting enough for the interesting bridge hands forum.

 

My partner had this hand yesterday and bid 1H (actually, redoubled to show hearts). I would have passed but I wasn't sure if that was better. I still don't know but I appreciate everybody's input.

[mtvesuvius]

I think I would bid 1♥, but I don't hate pass.

[655321]

1♥ for me.

 

And with the redouble to show hearts treatment, I think bidding (redoubling) is even more attractive because you overcome any wrongsiding issues.

[mikeh]

I confess, I had assumed that your title meant that you at least considered placing this question in the B/I forum precisely because the standard treatment is to respond to partner's 1minor bid, after a double, almost as if the double had not happend... and wouldn't we all bid 1♥ then?

Why is this a standard treatment? Surely there are some hands where you would bid over 1 of a minor to keep the auction open because you might have a game or a better fit, but you would pass after the double (because if you have a game partner will still bid). I daresay that "everyone" would respond if the CA was the CQ after a pass, but "everyone" would pass after the double.

 

I also think it is fairly common to bypass weak 4 card majors and bid 1N on certain hand types because even if you find a 4-4 fit it is likely trumps are breaking badly, and they're all on your right (not good when you have no honors).

 

It seems obvious to me that it is a different situation after a double and we shouldn't bury our heads in the sand and pretend there wasn't one.

I agree with all of your comments, other than to ask 'why is something standard?' is more a rhetorical device than a real question. The fact is that, as best as i can recall from having played and read bridge for 35 years, it is 'standard' to bid one over one as if the double had not taken place.

 

it is also true that a lot of 'standard' bidders will exercise discretion when applying this treament. If I held Kxx xxxx xxx AQx, I would almost certainly bid 1N rather than 1♥, for the very reasons that you outlined. But bidding 1N on this hand seems silly... it is positionally wrong and the best way to get to notrump on this hand, from partner's hand, is to bid 1♥.

 

Pass won't do it unless you get very lucky in the auction.

 

That isn't THE reason to bid 1♥, but is surely is A reason to bid 1♥ on this hand.