Have you read the torture memos?

[cherdanno]

It's making me puke.

[PassedOut]

Yes, but it is a 100% positive thing for the US that Obama released them.

[hrothgar]

I read them.

Not our (The United States) finest moment

[Winstonm]

I am strongly in agreement with Glenn Greenwald on this point. Obama should receive well-deserved kudos for having the political courage to face the inbred intelligence establishment and release the documents - regardless of how much howling and baying at the moon Hayden does on MSNBC.

 

At the same time, Obama should be castigated for these statements:

 

This is a time for reflection, not retribution. . . . But at a time of great challenges and disturbing disunity, nothing will be gained by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past. Our national greatness is embedded in America's ability to right its course in concert with our core values, and to move forward with confidence. That is why we must resist the forces that divide us, and instead come together on behalf of our common future.

 

And Greenwald takes Obama and the politcal elite to task:

 

That passage, more than anything else, is the mindset that has destroyed the rule of law in the U.S. and spawned massive criminality in our elite class.  Accountability for crimes committed by political leaders (as opposed to ordinary Americans) is scorned as "retribution" and "laying blame for the past."  Those who believe that the rule of law should be applied to the powerful as well as to ordinary citizens are demonized as the "forces that divide us."  The bottomless corruption of immunizing political elites for serious crimes is glorified in the most Orwellian terms as "a time for reflection," "moving forward," and "coming together on behalf of our common future."

 

And I would add this: every successful prosecution of every crime is a product of "spending our time and energy laying blame for the past." Shall we adopt the same Obama Credo for murder, rape, thievery, and terrorism? What is there about the political elite that makes their actions immune from prosecution and the advocates of prosecution "forces that divide us"?

 

I have said it before. We are either a nation of the rule of law or the sway of man; if not the rule of law, then we should abandon our false claim of Republic.

[PassedOut]

I am strongly in agreement with Glenn Greenwald on this point. Obama should receive well-deserved kudos for having the political courage to face the inbred intelligence establishment and release the documents - regardless of how much howling and baying at the moon Hayden does on MSNBC.

 

At the same time, Obama should be castigated for these statements:

While I agree that the leaders who authorized torture should be prosecuted, I disagree that Obama should be castigated for his statements.

 

Obama has to govern a country containing many fearful citizens who agree that people should be tortured under certain circumstances and who supported the Bush actions wholeheartedly. As distasteful as compromised principles might be to all of us, one must remain practical to have any hope of governing.

 

Note that this cuts both ways. People who strongly believe that abortion is tantamount to murder must compromise those beliefs when in the government.

[Winstonm]

Obama has to govern a country containing many fearful citizens who agree that people should be tortured under certain circumstances and who supported the Bush actions wholeheartedly. As distasteful as compromised principles might be to all of us, one must remain practical to have any hope of governing.

 

You are entitled to your opinion, of course. I am still firmly in the Greenwald camp. As far as I am concerned, those citizens who were fervently in favor of torture are as guilty as the instigators themselves.

 

Although I strongly disagree with the policies, I do not think Reagan or Bush the Lesser should be prosecuted for adopting supply-side economics and cutting corporate taxes.

 

Torture is not a policiy decision - it is a crime. Either our political elite are above the law or they are not. It really is that simple.

[hrothgar]

Couple observations:

 

Obama specifically ruled out prosecuting CIA officials who were just following orders. He has left the door open to prosecute the government officials who were responsible for crafting the policies that sanction and promoted torture as US policy.

 

Personally, I think that the best course of of action would be to stand by and let the International Criminal Court start war crimes trials against Yoo, Addington, and the like. (Honestly, I think that said trials should extend up to at least the level of the office of the Vice President)

 

If it were up to me, I'd hand all of the accused over to the International Criminal Court if/when charges are brought to bear. I doubt that Obama would make the same decision.

[pigpenz]

I am strongly in agreement with Glenn Greenwald on this point.  Obama should receive well-deserved kudos for having the political courage to face the inbred intelligence establishment and release the documents - regardless of how much howling and baying at the moon Hayden does on MSNBC.

 

 

 

I have said it before.  We are either a nation of the rule of law or the sway of man; if not the rule of law, then we should abandon our false claim of Republic.

hmm....somehow I dont think Hayden has done too much howling on MSNBC unless he has been doing it on Morning Joe. Joe was making such a big thing about the caterpillar in a box thing that I had to turn him off friday morning.

[helene_t]

I don't understand why you would send them to the Hague, Richard.

 

Everyone knows that Bush and his staff violated international law. Having that confirmed once again is not sending any message to anyone.

 

What the U.S. government and U.S. legal system needs is to demonstrate to the U.S. public that these guys violated U.S. law and that they aren't above the law.

[PassedOut]

Not prosecuting those who authorized torture and who provided the bogus "legal" rationale would indeed be a terrible injustice, one of many terrible injustices in the world. But we'll see what happens.

 

The bigger problem, to my mind, is the fact that we in the US let people who would do these things gain office in the first place. By releasing these documents, Obama has made it impossible for citizens to claim ignorance of what crimes have been done in our names. Transparency is not the answer to everything, but it certainly is crucial in allowing people to vote intelligently.

 

I'm willing to let this play out over time. Let folks digest what has been done. Prosecutions instigated by grass-roots demands will be a lot more effective than if Obama seems to be exacting political retribution.

 

To me, though, the commentators who say that Obama is another Bush are just plain nuts.

[PassedOut]

And now we are getting some good information about what really happened: Divisions Arose on Rough Tactics for Qaeda Figure

 

The first use of waterboarding and other rough treatment against a prisoner from Al Qaeda was ordered by senior Central Intelligence Agency officials despite the belief of interrogators that the prisoner had already told them all he knew, according to former intelligence officials and a footnote in a newly released legal memorandum.

 

The escalation to especially brutal interrogation tactics against the prisoner, Abu Zubaydah, including confining him in boxes and slamming him against the wall, was ordered by officials at C.I.A. headquarters based on a highly inflated assessment of his importance, interviews and a review of newly released documents show.

 

Abu Zubaydah had provided much valuable information under less severe treatment, and the harsher handling produced no breakthroughs, according to one former intelligence official with direct knowledge of the case. Instead, watching his torment caused great distress to his captors, the official said.

[hrothgar]

I don't understand why you would send them to the Hague, Richard.

 

Everyone knows that Bush and his staff violated international law. Having that confirmed once again is not sending any message to anyone.

 

What the U.S. government and U.S. legal system needs is to demonstrate to the U.S. public that these guys violated U.S. law and that they aren't above the law.

The fact that Cheney + Co violated US law doesn't mean that they didn't violate International Law. I think that War Crimes should fall "up" and be tried at the highest level possible.

 

It's also unclear whether or not it would be possible to try Cheney, etc. within the US.

[TimG]

Everyone knows that Bush and his staff violated international law. Having that confirmed once again is not sending any message to anyone.

Having them convicted and punished would send a message, wouldn't it?

[Winstonm]

Prosecutions instigated by grass-roots demands will be a lot more effective than if Obama seems to be exacting political retribution.

 

I strongly agree with these sentiments. I am also optimistic enough about my country to believe the vast majority of the population despises the concept of torture and believes it to never be justified. I also think there is a loud and vocal and very small minority who think like thugs and schoolyard bullies and who curl a lip, sneer, and say, "So?" to any contradiction to their appetite for vengeance. Unfortunately, this same small group seems to have a lot of the power of the media right now and their claims are heard disproportionately to what is in the heart of most Americans.

 

Along the same lines, it is shameful to me that an author of one of these memos is now a Federal judge, appointed by Bush: Judge Jay S. Bybee.

 

In addition to waterboarding, the 2002 Bybee memo authorized slapping, pushing, confinement in a small, dark space, painful stress positions, and sleep deprivation for up to 11 days. It also approved a request to lock one of the ‘high-value’ prisoners, Abu Zubaydah, in a confinement box with an insect.

[Al_U_Card]

They convict for concert with the enemy. (occasionally)

 

They convict for international bribery. (where they can)

 

They can convict for international terrorism. (no matter to whom it was directed)

 

As long as the individual is subject to the law of the land, enforce it or change it. Equal application of the law is what counts.

[y66]

The bigger problem, to my mind, is the fact that we in the US let people who would do these things gain office in the first place.

Yup. I don't get the argument that Bush, Cheney & Co. did this stuff and the rest of us are somehow innocent. These are U.S. policies, U.S. decisions and U.S. actions. We let these creeps get into office and we let them stay in office for 8 years. We all have blood on our hands.

[luke warm]

I am strongly in agreement with Glenn Greenwald on this point.  Obama should receive well-deserved kudos for having the political courage to face the inbred intelligence establishment and release the documents - regardless of how much howling and baying at the moon Hayden does on MSNBC.

 

At the same time, Obama should be castigated for these statements:

While I agree that the leaders who authorized torture should be prosecuted, I disagree that Obama should be castigated for his statements.

i think you and winston both miss the mark on this one... have you ever considered that obama isn't even slightly interested in any kind of criminal prosecution against the previous admin (most especially bush and/or cheney) because he himself might covet the same power (or at least see the potential for having to use it) without fear of future criminal retribution?

If it were up to me, I'd hand all of the accused over to the International Criminal Court if/when charges are brought to bear.  I doubt that Obama would make the same decision.

and i think this is ridiculous... of course i do understand that many in america want to hasten the day when we're all one, when any pretense of an american sovereignty is a thing of the past

[Winstonm]

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, my client Charles Manson should not be held accountable for these terrible crimes because "This is a time for reflection, not retribution... nothing will be gained by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past."

 

i think you and winston both miss the mark on this one... have you ever considered that obama isn't even slightly interested in any kind of criminal prosecution against the previous admin (most especially bush and/or cheney) because he himself might covet the same power (or at least see the potential for having to use it) without fear of future criminal retribution

 

Of course. That is exactly the reason his further statements should be castigated. Regardless of whether or not he wishes to hold onto the same power, he is only the President so it is not up to his whim to keep what is not his to start.

 

and i think this is ridiculous...

 

Then you must hold the position that the President and all the executive branch is above the law and there are no checks and balances on that power.

[pigpenz]

we bothers me is we hold other countries to these laws but when it comes to people in our own government we dont.....just yesterday they arrested some panamanian pirates for attacking another countries (south american) ship and brought them here to the United States.

[blackshoe]

we bothers me is we hold other countries to these laws but when it comes to people in our own government we dont.....just yesterday they arrested some panamanian pirates for attacking another countries (south american) ship and brought them here to the United States.

Who is "they", and where did this arrest take place?

[Winstonm]

It is remarkable how much this:

 

Jay S. Bybee, then-director of the OLC, wrote that insects could be used to capitalize on detainees’ fears. 

 

reflects Orwell's "Room 101, the most feared room in the Ministry of Love. Here a person's greatest fear is forced upon him or her for the final re-education step: acceptance."

 

And this, if true, should not be excused simply because memos were written:

 

At a military tribunal in 2007, the father of a Guantanamo detainee alleged that Pakistani guards had confessed that American interrogators used ants to coerce the children of alleged 9/11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed into revealing their father’s whereabouts

 

I seem to see an Orwellian pattern emerging....

 

"I just want you to know that, when we talk about war, we're really talking about peace." george w. bush, washington dc june 18 2002

 

"War Is Peace"  Newspeak slogan, 1984

[luke warm]

and i think this is ridiculous...

Then you must hold the position that the President and all the executive branch is above the law and there are no checks and balances on that power.

of course i don't... whatever gave you that idea?

[PassedOut]

i think you and winston both miss the mark on this one... have you ever considered that obama isn't even slightly interested in any kind of criminal prosecution against the previous admin (most especially bush and/or cheney) because he himself might covet the same power (or at least see the potential for having to use it) without fear of future criminal retribution?

I seriously doubt that Obama wants to torture anyone. If he did, why would he release the torture documents?

[Winstonm]

and i think this is ridiculous...

Then you must hold the position that the President and all the executive branch is above the law and there are no checks and balances on that power.

of course i don't... whatever gave you that idea?

Maybe I misunderstood - perhaps you meant that using the international criminal court was the ridiculous part and the charges should be taken up within the U.S. and by the U.S.

[Winstonm]

i think you and winston both miss the mark on this one... have you ever considered that obama isn't even slightly interested in any kind of criminal prosecution against the previous admin (most especially bush and/or cheney) because he himself might covet the same power (or at least see the potential for having to use it) without fear of future criminal retribution?

I seriously doubt that Obama wants to torture anyone. If he did, why would he release the torture documents?

He released the memos because Holder told him eventually he would have to do so anyway, that the FOIA case would be found in favor of the plantiffs, so Obama decided it would look better to voluntarily turn them over now rather than be compelled to later on.