Walddk Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 [hv=d=e&v=n&s=shkqj10643da7cj543]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]Nordic Junior Teams Championship in Iceland over Easter. Your RHO opens a natural 1♣, you bid 4♥, and the tray comes back with pass, 5♦ by partner and pass to your right. Question 1:What is 5♦ and what do you bid now? Question 2:What would 4♠ and 5♣ have been? Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 [hv=d=e&v=n&s=shkqj10643da7cj543]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]Nordic Junior Teams Championship in Iceland over Easter. Your RHO opens a natural 1♣, you bid 4♥, and the tray comes back with pass, 5♦ by partner and pass to your right. Question 1:What is 5♦ and what do you bid now? Question 2:What would 4♠ and 5♣ have been? Roland After I have bid 4♥'s, sadly or gladly hearts will be trumps. 5♦ is a slam try. question becomes what kind of slam try. Not asking for club control (that would be 5♥). So three logical alternative exist, but one is not logical. The first "logical" alternative is it is either a cue-bidThe second is it is an "exclusion" bidThe third is that it is asking for slam with great hearts (since 5♥ ask for slam with club control on this auction. Ok, I will eliminate 5♦ as a cue-bid. Partner can hardly lack controls in either black suit and be asking me for slam. If partner and I play exclusion, I assume we have agreed to it so I would know if it was or not. Therefore, if we had no such agreement, I would take it as asking for good trumps which I have. I would accept, and bid 5@S hoping to get a chance to cue-bid 5@D too for a possible 7@H. Yes. this is why I lose at bridge. :blink: 4S woudl be cue, 5C would be either cue or exclusion depending upon our agreements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flameous Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 5♦ is natural nonforcing slam try essentially in diamonds but partner can correct to hearts at any point. I'm bidding 5♠ Ok, some results merchanting as I saw the deal :P I think these would be my preferred methods. (At least the basic structure) 4♠ puppet to 4NT, after which 5♣ and 5♦ are EKCB and 5♥ looking for ♣ control.4NT is EKCB in ♠.5♣ shows spade suit, slam invitational too.5♦ as I said in hidden text.5♥ I don't know, asking for great trumps might be one use, perhaps some quantitative type raise, asking for two side controls or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtvesuvius Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 This is a problem that Cecelia Rimstedt of Sweden faced... I know the hand also, but here are my thoughts: 4♠: Relays 4NT (5♣ then Exclusion for ♣, 5♦ then Asking for ♦ cotrol, 5♥ then Asking for ♣ control)4NT: 1430 for ♠5♣: Spades; Slam Try (Since ♣ cannot be Natural)5♦: Natural; Slam Try 5♥: Asking to bid slam with 2 outside controls (Since you already should have good trumps) This isn't something that I have ever thought about in detail, but it's a very interesting problem! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted April 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 This is a problem that Cecelia Rimstedt of Sweden faced... ... and Anne-Sofie Houlberg of Denmark at the other table. They both got it 'wrong', which just shows that you need a specific agreement. I won't show the other hand just yet, but is it worth spending too much time over a sequence like this? I bet some top pairs have an agreement, but my estimate is that the number is pretty low. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo81 Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 I am sure 4♠ over 4♥ should be to play. 5m is worth having an agreement about. I would bid 5♠ here and then pass whatever red suit partner bids, or bid 6♦ over 6♣. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 I actually have clear agreements on all those bids (transfer advance style: 4♠ = control asking bid, 5♣ = diamonds, 5♦ = good heart raise). If this were a casual partnership, I would do: Over 5♦: this is either a bucketload of diamonds or some sort of heart support. In any case I'm bidding 6♦. Over 5♣: I'd take this as some sort of heart raise. Now I'd bid 5♦. Over 4♠: I'd take this as... natural and pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 This is tough. I could see plauisble agreements, depending on the partnershop style as to a 4♥ call and as to general partnership style. One simple idea is that 5♦ is a fit non-jump, meaning a diamond-oriented slam try. I'm not sure what this should say about clubs or spades, though. Maybe the heart Ace and KQJxx in diamonds is enough, in which case the lack of a club stop is a problem. Hence, maybe like a picture bid. Another is that this is simply the only slam try available with a club control (or without one). I mean, 4♠ could be an override, 5♣ could be the slam try that has the opposite meaning as 5♦ (as to the club control situation), and 5♥ might actually be furthering the preempt. Who knows? Maybe 4♠ even asks for shortness. Tough problem without discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 One simple idea is that 5♦ is a fit non-jump, meaning a diamond-oriented slam try. I'm not sure what this should say about clubs or spades, though. Maybe the heart Ace and KQJxx in diamonds is enough, in which case the lack of a club stop is a problem. Hence, maybe like a picture bid. What are you talking about? The person responding to a preempt doesn't show what he has: he asks for information. FNJs and picture bids are made when partner is unlimited, not when he has a very well defined hand type. Unless pard's preempt style is totally wild, using 5♦ as a "pass the bucket" bid seems like wrong strategy to me. The consequence of this error is the bidding ending up in 5♥ 95% of the time, going down quite more often than 4♥. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 One simple idea is that 5♦ is a fit non-jump, meaning a diamond-oriented slam try. I'm not sure what this should say about clubs or spades, though. Maybe the heart Ace and KQJxx in diamonds is enough, in which case the lack of a club stop is a problem. Hence, maybe like a picture bid. What are you talking about? The person responding to a preempt doesn't show what he has: he asks for information. FNJs and picture bids are made when partner is unlimited, not when he has a very well defined hand type. Unless pard's preempt style is totally wild, using 5♦ as a "pass the bucket" bid seems like wrong strategy to me. The consequence of this error is the bidding ending up in 5♥ 95% of the time, going down quite more often than 4♥. True, which is why I actually like the idea of 5♦ and 5♣ each being general quantitative slam tries, one with and one without the club control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 I play that over my 4♥ openings a cue shows the suit in wich I don't have the control, and that's what I would understand on this sequence. I'd bid 5♠ just in case I was very wrong :P. About what 5♣ sould be... ugh, a general slam try if that makes any sense, probably asking about trumps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOL Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 4S would be to play, not sure what this 5D bid is supposed to be, I would bid 5H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 If partner thinks she is improving the contract, we will have a discussion (much) later about what 4♥ means/shows. So I think this can be read as a forward-going move, but what kind of move? How can she look for slam off the diamond A and have no club control? My guess is that she has absolute club control (void, stiff A or AK), chunky diamonds headed by the King and surprising hearts. Thus xxxx Axx KQJxxx void or the like She isn't interested in bidding 5♣ because she won't expect us to bid a meaningful 5♦ over it... she's expect us to have to bid 5♥ since we rate NOT to hold first round control in both side suits. So I like her bid, if I can trust both of us to be on the same page, and I try with 5♠... if I hear 6♣, I'll pass the buck via 6♦... altho confusion could set in across the table at that point. I am not going to bid 7 by myself, since she might bid the same way with xxxx xxxxx KQJx void or the like... I mean, the odds are good that we'd have no trump losers opposite that hand, from her perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted April 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 [hv=d=e&v=n&n=saq73hdkqj98653c8&s=shkqj10643da7cj543]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]Both North players tried to bid a natural 5♦ (who can blame them?), but it was not interpreted as such. Rimstedt and Houlberg both pulled to 5♥, passed. Not a success; down 2 and a flat board. What North and South could have done to avoid this is not clear I think. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted April 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 4S would be to play, not sure what this 5D bid is supposed to be, I would bid 5H. So you're in good company, Justin. Rimstedt and Houlberg are both World Junior Champions and they both pulled as you see above. I've got one question, though. If 4♠ is to play, why can't 5♦ be? Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Am I on another planet? It would not occur to me that either 4♠ or 5♦ would be to play. I think north on the actual hand just has to pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOL Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Am I on another planet? It would not occur to me that either 4♠ or 5♦ would be to play. I think north on the actual hand just has to pass. Josh Donn, junior world champ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Am I on another planet? It would not occur to me that either 4♠ or 5♦ would be to play. I think north on the actual hand just has to pass. Josh Donn, junior world champ. I take that to be another way of saying "yes"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Am I on another planet? It would not occur to me that either 4♠ or 5♦ would be to play. I think north on the actual hand just has to pass. Me too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 Am I on another planet? It would not occur to me that either 4♠ or 5♦ would be to play. I think north on the actual hand just has to pass. Me too. me too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOL Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 It seems to me like 4S as a cuebid is almost never going to be useful, but 4S with a good 8 card suit (or GREAT 7 card suit) is likely to gain. However, bidding 5m natural seems even less likely to be useful than a cuebid since it's so less often that you'd want to pull 4major to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 It seems to me like this is good advertisement for transfer advances. With diamonds: bid 5♣ and pass pard's 5♦.With diamonds + hearts: bid 5♣ and bid 5♥ over pard's 5♦. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben42 Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 After you bid 4♥, they are trumps, i.e. I agree with JDown. 4♠ would also not have been natural. You can play 5♦ as a control asking bid, I guess. At the table I would have bid 6♦ to give pd a choice of slams, after all ♦Ax sounds great! Both North players tried to bid a natural 5♦ (who can blame them?), but it was not interpreted as such. Rimstedt and Houlberg both pulled to 5♥, passed. Not a success; down 2 and a flat board. What North and South could have done to avoid this is not clear I think. Why would 5♦ play TWO tricks better than ♥? After all partner bid 'em at the 4-level. I guess North should have passed 4♥ (here I am, mr. result merchant). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerclee Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 Having 4♠, 4NT, 5♣, and 5♦ all for slam purposes seems worse than having 4♠ natural and 4NT, 5♣, and 5♦ for slam purposes to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 I dunno wich planet it is but I think I am from the same planet as josh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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