You can count 12

[zasanya]

[hv=d=n&v=b&s=sakqxxhxxxdjckqjx]133|100|Scoring: IMP

Uncontested auction

1♥-1♠

3♠-4NT

5♣-5NT

6♦-?[/hv]

 

Your system is 12-14 NT and 4 card majors.

3♠ is invitational 'good 15-bad 18'

5♣=0/3;5NT= confirms all Key cards and trump Q and asks no of K;6♦=1K other than trump K.

So would you bid the grand?

[kfay]

Yes I bid it. All partner really needs is the ♥K and 3 diamonds.

 

If he doesn't I still have chances.

 

But I'm feeling kind of reckless today. If I knew partner had 5♥s I wouldn't bid it. If he's 44(32) I'm basically 50-50.

 

Can't I bid 6♥ if I decided I can't bid grand right this instant to ask partner if he's got anything extra?

[cherdanno]

No.

[mtvesuvius]

Nope. Partner either has the K♦ or the K♥, so if he has the K♦ then he needs a Red Queen then the ♥ finesse needs to be on or it's cold. If he has the ♥ King, then he needs the same. Partner can have the J♠, A♥, A♦ and A♣ plus an outside King. I think that this is pretty much all that partner has, and to ask for an outside queen may be too much.

[mikeh]

No.

 

There are too many hands on which we have no play... and even against good teams, on seemingly routine hands, the opps sometimes have accidents, so I agree with the late Edgar kapln who suggested that one needs to feel that the grand is at least 75% likely to make in order to bid it.

 

This is a good hand for relayers.

[Hanoi5]

What would partner bid over 6♥? I think that's my bid, if he has AKQ in hearts he'd bid 7, if not he'd bid only 6.

[kenrexford]

Why not bid 6♥? (GSLTTC)

 

If partner has an extra Queen with his Queen, he accepts.

 

Partner has A-A-A-K, for 15. He could easily have another Queen. If the Queen is working, it is with his King. That's trick #13.

 

[edit] Just saw another vote for 6♥. I'd add that he bids 7 with the AKQ in diamonds also.

[jdonn]

Definitely not. I won't even invite, I have already shown all the keycards. I don't think at this point it's even 50% that a grand will be good.

[orlam]

Given that we have rather simple agreements over rkcb (wasting space by reasking with 5N rather than 5H, number of kings rather than specific king ask), why is everyone assuming that 6H must be an invitation to 7? I would have expected 6♥ to be to play, and 6N be the queen-ask :P

Aside from that, partner will also bid slam on hands where it has no play.

But I'm feeling kind of reckless today. If I knew partner had 5♥s I wouldn't bid it. If he's 44(32) I'm basically 50-50.

That is 50-50 if he has ♥K rather than ♦K.

[kenrexford]

Definitely not. I won't even invite, I have already shown all the keycards. I don't think at this point it's even 50% that a grand will be good.

Huh?

 

You know you have 12 tricks, unless spades split 4-0, and even that might not be a problem. If partner has a matching Queen, you have 13. There is no maybe here. This is just 12 or 13.

 

Also, I don't get the "I have already shown" stuff. You haven't shown anything except that the partnership has enough general assets to explore 7 and that you, therefore, have all missing and necessary high honors. Opener, on the other hand, has described 9 of his 13 cards and has already placed 12 of his max "bad 18" HCP on the table when you bid 5NT. He knows that he can and will be able to put a total of 15 of his HCP on the table with a 6♦ call and, in so doing, will be able to deny any additional Kings.

 

Thus, it seems that Opener has had the ability to describe incredibly, to a partner who has described nothing except "stuff," "enough high stuff for a grand to be in play," and "four spades." In that situation, it seems prudent for Opener to complete pattern and cards description rather than to blast over 5NT.

 

I mean, blasting over 5NT should not show that which description can show. It shows that which description cannot show.

 

The question, then, is whether 6♥, which clearly IMO is not choice but Grand Last Train, asks for a touching Queen or a specific Queen.

 

I think it asks for a touching queen, personally. If so, then Opener should not bid 7 over 5NT simply because he has the touching queen, because he can show that by bidding 6♦ and accepting a 6♥ invite.

 

If 6♥ does not ask for a touching queen, what does it seek? Specifically the heart Queen? Implying that Responder has the heart King and needs hearts to come in? With AKQ in hearts, Opener would clearly blast over 5NT. So, does 5♥ invite the grand if Opener has the diamond King and heart Queen?

[jdonn]

Definitely not. I won't even invite, I have already shown all the keycards. I don't think at this point it's even 50% that a grand will be good.

Huh?

 

You know you have 12 tricks, unless spades split 4-0, and even that might not be a problem. If partner has a matching Queen, you have 13. There is no maybe here. This is just 12 or 13.

Did I say anything that contradicts that? You can take my post to mean that I believe at this point it's more likely we want to play for 12 tricks than for 13. Keep in mind that xxxx AKQxx Ax Ax is arguably too good for a 3♠ call, certainly if you add any major suit jacks.

 

Also, I don't get the "I have already shown" stuff.  You haven't shown anything except that the partnership has enough general assets to explore 7 and that you, therefore, have all missing and necessary high honors.

You seem to get it since you just repeated the exact same thing, except you tried to sound a lot more confused and pessimistic about it.

[kenrexford]

I still don't think you are understanding what I am saying, Josh. But, I agree that perhaps xxxx-AKQxx-Ax-Ax is too much for 3♠ if you add to that statement "and then not immediately accepting over 5NT."

 

However, what about xxxx-Axxxx-AKQ-A?

 

I still think the core question should be what 6♥ asks. If Opener has whatever 6♥ would ask for, he should not bid 7 over 5NT. He should bid 6♦ and accept 6♥ for the grand try.

 

Maybe 6♥ should ask for the grand bid if there is a non-associated Queen.

 

The four hands where partner can have a queen (contextually) are:

 

xxxx-Axxxx-AKQ-A

xxxx-AKQxx-A(x)(x)-A(x)(x)

xxxx-AKxxx-AQ(x)-A(x)

xxxx-AQxxx-AK(x)-A(x)

 

In addition, the theory implies a need for assessing other-suit Queens (clubs).

 

I suppose I have no idea what 6♥ should ask. I still think it should ask for a touching Queen, but I could also be persuaded that it asks for the xxxx-AQxxx-AK(x)-A(x) hand (do you have THIS queen?).

 

Hmmmmm.

[Phil]

For me, 6♥ doesn't really 'ask' anything, except "do you have anything more"?

 

xxxx AKQxx Ax Ax is a red herring. While this hand is a max 3♠ call (and no more), it really bid 7♠ call over 5N. Certainly we have ♠AKQ / side King and some fillers or a 5th spade for 5N. Add a 6th heart, and its more than 3♠.

 

xxxx Axxxx AKQ A is soooo specific.

 

xxxx AKxxx AQ Ax looks more like a 3♠ call to me. I don't want to be in 7 here, although 6N looks nice at MPs.

 

I've talked myself into 6N.

[kenrexford]

It's solved!

 

6♥ asks Opener to bid 6NT with a non-touching Queen but 7 with a touching queen. For good measure, Opener indicates which touching queen, so Responder can elect between 7NT and 7♠ intellugently!

 

Obvious!

 

:P

[jdonn]

Edit, sarcastic comment rethought.

[Cascade]

What would partner bid over 6♥? I think that's my bid, if he has AKQ in hearts he'd bid 7, if not he'd bid only 6.

I would expect partner with a sure source of tricks would be 7♠ over 5NT so I don't think he has ♥ AKQxx and probably not those top hearts in a four card suit.

[the hog]

6S. If I have the agreement that I had with some partners that 6H asked for the K in their suit, then I would probably bid that. Otherwise easy 6S bid and no more.