Meaning of 3S?

[Phil]

By a passed hand, what is your preferred treatment for:

 

Pass - 1♠

3♠?

[dicklont]

Are you sure this is your question, or do you mean

pass - 1♣

3♠

This would be a splinter for clubs.

Normally that requires opening values, I wonder why I passed first. :)

[Phil]

Are you sure this is your question, or do you mean

pass - 1♣

3♠

This would be a splinter for clubs.

Normally that requires opening values, I wonder why I passed first. :)

Yes, I'm quite sure that I asked the question correctly.

[whereagles]

You can play it as preemptive. That isn't optimal, but gets credit for simplicity.

 

The best use is probably a mixed raise of spades. 4 card spade, 2 top cards somewhere.

[Finch]

I play it as 5332, mixed raise type values.

[ArtK78]

I don't see much reason for playing the double raise by a passed hand as purely preemptive. The opponents don't seem inclined to enter the auction.

 

When I was playing constructive major suit raises by a passed hand, the meaning of a jump raise was a hand too good for a constructive raise - essentially a hand that was now worth an opening bid. But if you play Drury or some other artificial strong raise by a passed hand, I don't see why you would want to make a jump raise for a normal strong passed hand raise. So it should have a very well defined meaning.

 

I would play it as a strong mixed raise - 4 or 5 card support, limit raise strength.

 

The only other possibility would be a real mixed raise - less than limit raise strength, but still 4 or 5 card support.

[jdonn]

I play it as a limit raise based on distribution rather than strength. I guess for some people that's the same as a mixed raise, but I make extremely light mixed raises so I have to refer to it differently.

[kenrexford]

Kind of mixed/limit. We call it "limix," meaning a mixed raise in HCP, probably five trumps, and some sort of distributiuonal value that increases the playing strength to limit.

 

Thus, kind of what Josh plays.

[JLOL]

mixed obv

[peachy]

No weak jumps by a passed hand, there is nothing to pre-empt when both opponents have already passed once. By my logic, this 3S is a maximum 4-card limit raise, typically with a singleton.

[RichMor]

Same as

1♠ - 3♠

 

It's good to keep meanings the same for a passed hand raise, subject to a downward revision of strength if an original raise was forcing of course.

 

Also like to play

P - 1♠

2NT

as a raise if that's your treatment for a non-passed hand response. It would tend to show a hand that was almost an opening bid.

 

RichM

[Phil]

I actually held QT9xx Kx Qxx xxx. This FELT like a 3♠ call to me LOL.

[the hog]

Same as

1♠ - 3♠

 

It's good to keep meanings the same for a passed hand raise, subject to a downward revision of strength if an original raise was forcing of course.

 

Also like to play

P - 1♠

2NT

as a raise if that's your treatment for a non-passed hand response. It would tend to show a hand that was almost an opening bid.

 

RichM

I agree with Rich.

[jdonn]

I don't understand. If every bid stays the same except for accounting for being a passed hand, is 2NT a limit raise? And then 3♠ is also a limit raise? And then drury can't have four cards?

[the hog]

Well Josh, personally I don't play Drury. If I did I would agree with you. 3S for me shows a more shapely raise, whereas 2NT would be a squarer raise with just under opening strength. Can't speak for Rich, of course.

[Phil]

By the way, the option for FJ in clubs wasn't a typo. I think its a perfectly reasonable style to play after p - 1M - ? :

 

2♣ = Drury

2N = 5-5 minors

3♣ = Clubs, 9-11

3M = FJ in clubs.

[whereagles]

Well Josh, personally I don't play Drury. If I did I would agree with you. 3S for me shows a more shapely raise, whereas 2NT would be a squarer raise with just under opening strength. Can't speak for Rich, of course.

If you don't play Drury, I guess opener is barred from opening 1M on 4 cards, no?

[the hog]

Well Josh, personally I don't play Drury. If I did I would agree with you. 3S for me shows a more shapely raise, whereas 2NT would be a squarer raise with just under opening strength. Can't speak for Rich, of course.

If you don't play Drury, I guess opener is barred from opening 1M on 4 cards, no?

Not on a good 4 carder.

[RichMor]

Well Josh, personally I don't play Drury. If I did I would agree with you. 3S for me shows a more shapely raise, whereas 2NT would be a squarer raise with just under opening strength. Can't speak for Rich, of course.

Ron,

 

You can speak for me since you said the same thing I would have said.

 

Josh,

 

Yes sort of. A limit raise by a passed hand shows more shape and a 2NT response by a passed hand shows more strength. Both would deliver good 4-card support or maybe 5-card support. If the opening was on a 4-card suit this gives some protection.

 

If you play Drury as well, then 2♣ shows 3-card or weak 4-card support.

 

Of course this all goes out the window if pard opens dreck in third position.

 

RichM

[whereagles]

Well Josh, personally I don't play Drury. If I did I would agree with you. 3S for me shows a more shapely raise, whereas 2NT would be a squarer raise with just under opening strength. Can't speak for Rich, of course.

If you don't play Drury, I guess opener is barred from opening 1M on 4 cards, no?

Not on a good 4 carder.

You mean you're ok with driving to the 3 level on what could be a 4-3 fit?

[Trinidad]

Well Josh, personally I don't play Drury. If I did I would agree with you. 3S for me shows a more shapely raise, whereas 2NT would be a squarer raise with just under opening strength. Can't speak for Rich, of course.

If you don't play Drury, I guess opener is barred from opening 1M on 4 cards, no?

Not on a good 4 carder.

You mean you're ok with driving to the 3 level on what could be a 4-3 fit?

How would that happen?

 

Now I happen to like Drury a lot, but I don't see how you will get in a 4-3 fit at the 3 level if you don't play Drury.

 

As long as the PH responder doesn't jump to the 3 level with 3 card support, little can go wrong.

 

If responder has 3 card support and less than invitational values, you will be playing 2M after 1M-2M. If he does have a maximum pass with 3 cards, he will either:

 

- bid 1NT (semiforcing) and he gets to play there.

- bid a natural 2/1 (5+ cards) and gets to play it there.

 

Of course, if opponents still enter the bidding, he can still bid 2M, but after that, it is opener who is in charge. As long as opener won't go to the 3 level, responder shouldn't either.

 

Rik

[the hog]

Rik summarises it nicely, Nuno.

[jdonn]

Seems like too many raises to me, but whatever.

[whereagles]

Rik summarises it nicely, Nuno.

Well, I understand. But my point is, with a 3 card inv raise:

 

- If you bid a 2/1 intending to show support later, you run the risk of playing in the 2/1 suit, sometimes without a fit, when a major fit might be available.

 

- If you bid 1NT, you give 4th player the chance to bid 2m, which might well be raised to 3 by your RHO and you'd face an unpleasant guess. Ok, so it's not likely 4th player bids, given he's a passed hand. But those things happen and one must have the tools to cope with them.

 

By showing support immediately, Drury solves both situations, for the small price of a natural 2/1 in clubs.

[Trinidad]

Rik summarises it nicely, Nuno.

Well, I understand. But my point is, with a 3 card inv raise:

 

- If you bid a 2/1 intending to show support later, you run the risk of playing in the 2/1 suit, sometimes without a fit, when a major fit might be available.

There must be a fit in responder's suit. You cannot (at least should not) open on a four card suit and not have something in every other suit.

 

What is a real problem is the fact that you may get to the wrong partscore. If opener has a subminimum with a five card major, you will end up playing in the 8 card minor fit, rather than the 8 card major fit.

 

- If you bid 1NT, you give 4th player the chance to bid 2m, which might well be raised to 3 by your RHO and you'd face an unpleasant guess. Ok, so it's not likely 4th player bids, given he's a passed hand. But those things happen and one must have the tools to cope with them.

Yes, here you are right. This is possible (and actually occurs). That is one reason why I like Drury. But I wouldn't state that "one must have the tools to cope".

 

By showing support immediately, Drury solves both situations, for the small price of a natural 2/1 in clubs.

My most important reason for playing Drury is that it is a very anonymous game invitation, where you aren't even forced to the 3 level. The auction Pass-1M; 2♣-4M is one of my favorites. You are more than half a trick ahead of Pass-1M; 1NT-2x; 3M-4M.

 

Rik