Super-Chart or Mid-Chart or insane?

[mtvesuvius]

2 Possible 1♠ openings, I'm not sure which I want to use yet:

 

1. 11-15 HCP with Any 4441 Hand

 

OR

 

2. 15+ HCP with Any 4441 Hand

 

OR

 

3. Any ideas for a better use?

 

Is there any specific regulations on this? Must there be an anchor suit? Mid-Chart or Superchart?

 

Any help here would be great! :) Thanks.

[Gerben42]

Maybe you would like to post the rest of the system before we tell you that it's a bad idea.

[mtvesuvius]

My partner and I are not finished working on the system by any means, but the basic opening structure would be:

 

1♣ 16+ Artificial

1♦ 11-15 HCP; 0+♦ (1♥ GF Relay, may have up to 6♥)

1♥ 11-15 HCP; 5+♠

1♠ 15+ HCP; Any 4441

1NT 13-15 HCP; Balanced (4432/4333 ONLY)

2♣ 11-15 HCP; 5+♣ 4M or (322)=6

2♦ 4-10 HCP; 5+M (Weak Multi)

2♥ 4-10 HCP; 5+♥ 4+m

2♠ 4-10 HCP; 5+♠ 4+m

2NT NV: 5-9 HCP; 5-5+ Minors. V: 7-9 HCP; 5-5+ Minors

3♣ 4-10 HCP; 6+♣

3♦ 4-10 HCP; 6+♦

3♥ 4-10 HCP; 6+♥

3♠ 4-10 HCP; 6+♠

[TimG]

I think either would be Super Chart. You would need an approved defense to use the method in a mid-chart event. Kind of strange that you can use 2D (or 1D) to show either of these hand types in a GCC event, but not 1S in anything but a Super Chart event. Go figure.

[gwnn]

it's a bad idea

[rbforster]

1. 11-15 HCP with Any 4441 Hand

2. 15+ HCP with Any 4441 Hand

I strongly believe that more than 1 cheap bid for unlimited openings is a bad idea, wasting space that could be used to show much more common "normal" hands. In this vein, I'd suggest including the 16+ 4441's in your strong club. Everyone else who plays precision manages to get it to work including these hands, so there shouldn't be a problem.

 

As for the 11-15 version of 4441's, I really think these aren't common enough to be worth devoting a special opening bid (not even a rare higher level bid like 2♦ that precision uses for these and frequently (43)15 shapes too). As such, I'd just throw the 4441's into 1N (if 13-15) or 1♥(4+♠ rarely instead of 5+) or 1♦ (0+) based on judgment. If you really feel like these are a problem, GCC allows you to use 2♣ or 2♦ openings to show them, but I'm not a fan.

 

From the rest of system, it seems like you've got 1♦ and 1♠ available to show these hands:

 

1) 5+♥

2) 5+♦ unbalanced

3) minors 4/5+

4) 4441's

5) 13-15 5m(332)

6) 11-12 balanced (if you want to open these)

 

A fairly typical approach might be to use 1♦ for most heart hands including 4441's with hearts (nice with 1♥ GF relay), and possibly also including 13-15 5m332's (if you really don't want to open those 1N). This is a lot of hands, but it's the cheapest bid so it should be ok. Then use 1♠ for just diamonds and/or minors.

 

If you have specific parts of the system you're particularly interested in keeping, you might let us know so we can give suggestions around those.

[blackshoe]

I haven't looked, so don't know what I'd say about which chart, but if an agreement requires an approved defense on the midchart, it still requires it playing on the superchart. Also, I think the SC says something like "any method not GCC requires a pre-alert and a recommended defense". On my reading of it, I think it says that even those midchart methods that do not require a suggested defense playing under the midchart would require such a defense when playing under the SC — but I doubt that was intended, or that it would be enforced.

[TylerE]

This is why I think a strong club with 4 card majors (typically canape' style) works so well. The 4441 problem goes away, your 1♦ opening starts promising a suit again, etc.

[Apollo81]

By far the biggest problem with this is that you are using a super-valuable 1-level opening for a very specific set of hands (4441s) that won't occur very often. Hence this is almost a wasted bid. This forces you to use another super-valuable 1-level opening to show a set of hands that would normally use two different 1-level openings, and that aren't similar in any meaningful way.

[TimG]

I haven't looked, so don't know what I'd say about which chart, but if an agreement requires an approved defense on the midchart, it still requires it playing on the superchart.

From the ACBL Super Chart:

Pre-Alerts are required for all conventional methods not permitted

on the ACBL General Convention Chart. Description of, and suggested

defenses to, such methods must be made in writing. A defense to a

method which requires the above pre-Alert may be referred to during

the auction by opponents of the convention user.

 

For NABC+ events in which this chart is permitted, pairs playing

SuperChart methods must furnish the above descriptions of their

methods to the Director-in-Charge of the event the day prior to the

session in which they choose to play them.

While the defenses must be in writing, and in some cases submitted a day ahead, nothing in the above says that the defenses must go through the same approval process as required for mid-chart methods. It is my belief that no approval process exists for Super Chart methods.

[gwnn]

Seriously though dude, look for discussions on Mini Roman. It's unequivocally, categorically laughed at on these boards. All this because it makes it impossible to show a weak hand with long diamonds (this is an oversimplified statement, but the point is valid). So how would you describe a method where you lose a much lower, therefore much more needed bid to the same or even more restricted range of hands?

[hanp]

It seems to me that you don't have a bid that shows 11-15 pts and hearts, is that correct?

[mtvesuvius]

It seems to me that you don't have a bid that shows 11-15 pts and hearts, is that correct?

1♦ includes that...

[Apollo81]

It seems to me that you don't have a bid that shows 11-15 pts and hearts, is that correct?

1♦ includes that...

This is what I was referring to when I said

 

"This forces you to use another super-valuable 1-level opening to show a set of hands that would normally use two different 1-level openings, and that aren't similar in any meaningful way."

[mycroft]

Full Roman doesn't get laughed at as badly, though, and were I to be in JanM's shoes and only playing Mid-Chart events, I would switch to 2D 17-24 Roman, 2H three-suiter short in diamonds for many reasons. But I'm not, and the forgetting penalty would never be minor, so there you go.

[shevek]

2 Possible 1♠ openings, I'm not sure which I want to use yet:

 

1. 11-15 HCP with Any 4441 Hand

 

OR

 

2. 15+ HCP with Any 4441 Hand

 

OR

 

3. Any ideas for a better use?

 

Is there any specific regulations on this? Must there be an anchor suit? Mid-Chart or Superchart?

 

Any help here would be great! :) Thanks.

4441s are 3% of hand shapes. End of story.

[wclass___]

I definetly advise Not using MUlti, natural - 6♦+ or 5♦4♣ will take some hands away from 1♦

2♣ similar

1♠ 4♠+ 8/~12 4432 or better

1♥ 4!S+ 4♠522 or better 12/15

1♦ 4♥+

 

Pfffff...

[kfay]

Insane

[paulg]

Insane or not, I would expect this 1♠ opening would be classified a HUM.

 

http://www.worldbridge.org/departments/systems/policy.asp[/url]']2.2 HUM Systems

For the purpose of this Policy, a Highly Unusual Method (HUM) means any System that ex­hib its one or more of the following features, as a matter of partnership agreement:

1. A Pass in the opening position shows at least the values generally accepted for an opening bid of one, even if there are alternative weak possibilities
    
   
2. By partnership agreement an opening bid at the one level may be weaker than pass.
    
   
3. By partnership agreement an opening bid at the one level may be made with values a king or more below average strength.
    
   
4. By partnership agreement an opening bid at the one level shows either length or shortage in a specified suit
    
   
5. By partnership agreement an opening bid at the one level shows either length in one specified suit or length in another.
   

EXCEPTION: one of a minor in a strong club or strong diamond system

Specifically it meets criteria 4 (in any suit you care to specify).

 

There is no information available on the WBF site for permitted systems in the World Youth Championships in Turkey this year, but generally HUMs are not permitted in Junior events.

 

Paul

[spotlight7]

Hi:

 

So #4 makes a Precision 1D opening that some play as 1+ or 0+ a HUM?

 

I currently play it as 2+, but I have played it as either of the above meanings.

 

Regards,

Robert

[paulg]

Hi:

 

So #4 makes a Precision 1D opening that some play as 1+ or 0+ a HUM?

 

I currently play it as 2+, but I have played it as either of the above meanings.

 

Regards,

Robert

 

A debate we've often had, but promising 0+ or 1+ is different from guaranteeing 1 or 4.

 

I also believe (based on the formatting) that the EXCEPTION applies to all clauses, so you can do anything with 1♣ and 1♦ in a strong club or strong diamond system.

[mtvesuvius]

OK, thanks everyone! :lol:

 

This system will probably just stick to BBO and maybe a few national events, but I appreciate the responses.

[JLOL]

uhh no :lol: