1NT Forcing Auction ATB

[mtvesuvius]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sakxxxhqxdkjxxcax&s=sxhakxxxxdqxcxxxx]133|200|Scoring: IMP

ATB:

 

1♠ - 1NT

2♦ - 2♥

2NT - Pass[/hv]

 

Playing 2/1 etc... Who screwed up?

[TylerE]

Well, 2♥ shows a hand worse than that... 2NT is very pessimistic, so is pass of 2N IMO. Would 1♠ - 2♥ - 2S/2N - 3♥ be forcing? If no, I think I start with 2♥ rather than 1NT. An overbid yes, but I really hate having to start with 1N on a hand like that.

 

My gut instinct on the blame is:

 

 

70% North (30% for just rebidding 2N, 40% for not opening 1NT)

30% South (For passing 2NT)

[gwnn]

I think N is a noob. btw 1NT would have been 12-14.

[awm]

If 2♥ shows a hand worse than this, how is 2NT pessimistic? I don't get it.

 

North could've rebid 2NT (opening 1NT is terrible, both because of shape and overall strength). But rebidding 2♦ is textbook and does include 17-point hands in its range.

 

South's 2♥ rebid is normal. It's a maximum, but you're allowed to have a maximum sometimes. I don't think this misfitting nine-count is an "invitational hand" opposite a normal opening.

 

North's 2NT is fine, suggesting something like a good 16 to a bad 18, although I think 5143 would be a more typical distribution (since 5242 with honors in the doubletons is a favorite to rebid 2NT at first turn).

 

I blame south for not bidding on with his maximum 2♥ rebid opposite opener who has shown extras and game interest.

[Lobowolf]

I pretty much agree with Adam. I think everything's completely normal up to 2NT, which is reasonable, and the final pass, which is bad. 2NT is forward-going, and south can hardly have more for his auction thus far.

[neilkaz]

South has too much to pass 2NT here.

[JLOL]

I like how nobody has said what they think the right bid is with the south hand over 2N heh. Is 3C checking back for 2 card heart support or is it just a natural bid? If its not the former then how do you find 62 heart fits.

 

Obv south should bid but it's not clear what.

[RichMor]

Maybe South should rebid 3♥ over 2♦. The Diamond Queen has gained value and the Heart suit is good.

[helene_t]

I like how nobody has said what they think the right bid is with the south hand over 2N heh. Is 3C checking back for 2 card heart support or is it just a natural bid? If its not the former then how do you find 62 heart fits.

 

Obv south should bid but it's not clear what.

I think 3♣ is an offer to play. 6-7 points, 5-5 or more in the rounded suites. Of course a case could be made for check-back but we haven't discussed this sequence so if it can be natural, it is.

 

I am less sure about 3♦, The natural meaning is 6-4 red suits or maybe 1543 but it is a very slim target as the hand has to be too strong to pass 2♦ while too weak to accept the invite. I think I would rather take 3♦ as check-back than 3♣ but obviously there is not guarantee that p is on the same wavelength.

 

3♠ should be forcing as I have denies=d three spades and with only two I wouldn't mprove the contact. So if nothing else is forcing, 3♠ is the only bid that can be used as check-back and if p is still unsure which major suit game to go for he could still bid a 4m.. Again, though, undiscussed bids are natural so it should probably show a doubleton spades rather than six hearts.

 

I think I would try 3♠ in a friendly game and 3NT in a more serious game.

[Phil]

I give the blame to South, as long as 1♠ - 3♥ isn't intermediate and 1♠ - 1N - 2x - 3♥ isn't a splinter.

 

He can't have a better hand, and 2N isn't 'running'. Even if 2N can be a 5=1=4=3, I think 4♥ is indicated.

 

I really see no problem with North's bidding.

[awm]

I'm sure that in a lot of my partnerships 1♠-1NT-2♦-2♥-2NT-3♣ would be checkback. But I apparently play a lot more "fourth suit forcing" auctions than other people, and didn't want to get into the common argument about the meaning of these sequences.

[jdonn]

I would take 3♣ as natural NF for sure. 6-5 is very possible, and in fact so is 5-6. And of course 3♥ is also natural NF. 3♦ and 3♠ are a little trickier, but since you might rebid 2♥ on a weak hand with a diamond fit I think 3♦ should also be natural NF. By my general principles/meta agreements 3♠ would be natural showing honor doubleton and exploring for the best game (it's obviously forcing). It's true this leaves me with no good way to bid some other hands such as 6 hearts but not wanting to commit to 4♥, or hearts with side clubs and game forcing but not wanting to bypass 3NT. Maybe in a perfect world 3♠ would be a more generic choice of games bid and opener could simply do his best to work it out.

 

Obviously south was on crack to pass 2NT, and as south I would simply guess at the best game. Not sure which one I would pick.

[hanp]

South definitely lost his mind. I would also take 3C as NF, I can't checkback. I would just bid 3NT, this seems obvious.

 

I would consider 3H instead of 2NT as north.

[peachy]

South must not pass the forwardgoing 2NT. He has the best hand he could possibly hold for the 2H bid, perhaps too much even.

[Apollo81]

I would have bid

 

- 3NT over 2NT with the South hand.

- 3♥ over 2♥ with the North hand.

[kfay]

South definitely lost his mind. I would also take 3C as NF, I can't checkback. I would just bid 3NT, this seems obvious.

 

I would consider 3H instead of 2NT as north.

Agree.

 

I was watching Michielsen/Bertheau play yesterday and Marion responded 3♥ to 2♥ on this auction with AK10763 J7 A763 K. It didn't work out well after Peter raised with 5 AK1096 942 J764.

 

Whether the North hand is a 2NT or a 3♥ bid is probably a style thing but it's clear that South should go on. I might have had 4HCP on this auction, personally. I'd also bid 3NT.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

The way the auction developed: South.

 

North showes a max. hand, with a semi bal.

shape, 2Nt is not a rescue bid.

South knowes the fit, he has max., he should

bid 4H.

 

I am not sure, I would have bid 2NT with the

North hand, but it is a good bid, North can

stand a 3H bid, so 2NT is fine.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[skjaeran]

With (most of) my regulars I'd have responded 2♥ inititally, and rebid 3♥, which is invitational for us.

 

I'd not like to GF with the south hand, so if 2♥ is unconditionally GFing, I'd have to respond 1NT and take it from there. I don't think the hand is suitable for 3♥ over 2♦, thus I agree with 2♥.

 

I don't think 2NT was the right rebid with the north hand. I prefer 3♥, but this is pretty close.

 

Passing 2NT is impossible with the south hand. It's obvious to get to game now, the question is to which game. 3♣ sounds weak to me. So I guess it's got to be 3♥ - that ought to be COG.

[jdonn]

Passing 2NT is impossible with the south hand. It's obvious to get to game now, the question is to which game. 3♣ sounds weak to me. So I guess it's got to be 3♥ - that ought to be COG.

Do you play weak jump shifts? If so I could understand this treatment. If not then I don't see how 3♥ can't be weak and to play (x QJT9xx Jxx xxx).

[oldman5757]

Some would certainly reach game by bidding 2 ♥ over the 1 ♠ call. A very large # of players, perhaps even a majority, as N would simply bid 2NT over S's 1NT response, and then game is also reached very easily.

 

However, if a 2NT raise shows 18-19 hcp, then, IMO, the bidding is correct as shown thru N's 2NT call. With a good six card ♥ suit, however, and a working ♦ Q, and V at IMPs, S clearly owes N another call, and the only question is what it should be.

 

While I agree that S must bid here, I think we are dismissing his problems too easily. 4♥ or 3NT could look very silly if N is 5-1-4-3, which is quite possible on this auction. To cater to that possibility, I'd bid 3 ♣ non-forcing. N will almost never pass this, and if he does, it may well be ok because we aren't fitting. Much more likely is that N will take a preference with 2 ♥, so we can bid 4, or N will bid 3NT, which we'll pass. :lol:

[hanp]

With (most of) my regulars I'd have responded 2♥ inititally, and rebid 3♥, which is invitational for us.

 

I'd not like to GF with the south hand, so if 2♥ is unconditionally GFing, I'd have to respond 1NT and take it from there. I don't think the hand is suitable for 3♥ over 2♦, thus I agree with 2♥.

 

I don't think 2NT was the right rebid with the north hand. I prefer 3♥, but this is pretty close.

 

Passing 2NT is impossible with the south hand. It's obvious to get to game now, the question is to which game. 3♣ sounds weak to me. So I guess it's got to be 3♥ - that ought to be COG.

I don't understand this Harald. Playing your system you'd invite but after 1S-1NT-2D the hand is not suitable for 3H? While I agree with the latter, it seems inconsistent.

[gnasher]

I think 3♣ is fourth-suit forcing. Yes, it might occasionally be nice to be able to bid it naturally, but 1♥-1♠;2♣-2♦ might be useful as a natural bid too, and we manage without that.

 

It's not even clear that a natural 3♣ will be that useful. With a weak 6-5 we might belong in 3♥ anyway; with a weak 5-6 responder might have bid 3♣ over 2♦.

[jdonn]

I think 3♣ is fourth-suit forcing.  Yes, it might occasionally be nice to be able to bid it naturally, but 1♥-1♠;2♣-2♦ might be useful as a natural bid too, and we manage without that.

Obviously this auction is not analagous. In the original auction opener has denied three card support for our suit, and shown a two or more in another suit, neither of which is true of your auction. Further, slam is a consideration in all five strains in your auction so the need for a bid to establish a game force at a low level is clear.

 

It's not even clear that a natural 3♣ will be that useful.  With a weak 6-5 we might belong in 3♥ anyway; with a weak 5-6 responder might have bid 3♣ over 2♦.

Your first statement amounts to 'we have a fair shot to guess the right contract anyway on a weak 6-5 without investigating an alternative' which is of course true on hands where you want a forcing checkback as well. As for 5-6, for it to bid 3♣ over 2♦ would clearly be an exception to the norm based on a great suit quality disparity, since the normal bid on that shape is most definitely 2♥, the suit we can bid at a lower level, that is higher scoring, in which we are more likely to have game, and which leaves opener room to cheaply rebid his original suit.

[hanp]

I think the largest difference is that we have both limited our hands. Having said that I think 3C as some checkback could be useful but it doesn't seem natural to me. I have noticed before that our British posters have a broader interpretation of fourth suit forcing than I do.

[JLOL]

Adam is really a Brit B)