Assign the Blame

[bhindi]

[hv=d=w&v=b&n=sk9xxhxxxdjxxcxxx&s=sajxhaxdkqcqj1098x]133|200|Scoring: IMP

2♥-p-4♥-dbl-

-p-4♠-dbl-p-p-p[/hv]

 

Minus 500, 4♥ is two down. Who's at fault?

[TylerE]

100% to south.

[whereagles]

100% to E/W

[jdaming]

Is double for takeout or penalty in your system. If it is takeout south is WAY offbase. If it is penalty I still think south needs to truly examine the trick taking potential of his hand not just sheer hcp. I am not sure however that north should try and "save" as it could be set with ♥,2♠,and a ♦.

[kfay]

Double by South seems routine to me. With such a balanced hand perhaps North should just leave it in.

[Vilgan]

Double by south there seems pretty standard.

 

0% to south,

 

80% to N

20% to E/W

 

E/W made it harder for north to make the right call, but bidding 4 spades when you aren't sure what partner has seems a bit risky.

 

It does seem like one that you need to screw up to really get hammered home though. If north hadn't been in this position before, the error of bidding 4♠ is less evident.

[P_Marlowe]

4S is normal.

 

Most likely I would have passed with the South hand,

but I would not say the X is wrong, I just dont like it.

 

So I follow the suggestion, that the opponents are to

blame, maybe 10-20% for the t/o.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[bid_em_up]

Double by South seems routine to me.  With such a balanced hand perhaps North should just leave it in.

Double by south there seems pretty standard.

 

0% to south,

 

95% to N

5% to E/W

 

What they said. (I changed vilgan's percentages though).

[Phil]

Easy to see that passing works great. If you wanted more honest answers, I would have polled it :)

 

I still would have passed the North hand btw.

[hanp]

Agree with kevin and others.

[JLOL]

This auction is fine, no blame.

 

Totally disagree with blaming north, pulling with a balanced hand and 4 spades should be routine, esp wtih xxx hearts.

[awm]

I think it's important to have agreements about the meaning of south's double. There are two reasonable candidates, followed by two less reasonable ones:

 

(1) Double is takeout and promises support for the unbid suits. Partner is expected to normally remove the double, even on a balanced hand.

 

(2) Double is "cards" (convertible values) and typically shows the equivalent of a strong notrump. Partner is expected to leave the double in with all fairly flat hands, but can remove it with a lot of extra shape (i.e. a six card suit, or 5-5 in two suits, or a good five-card spade suit).

 

(3) Double is penalty, and partner should nearly always leave it in.

 

(4) Double is either "takeout" or "cards" and partner is on a pure guess as to what to do, which he will fairly often get wrong. Perhaps "blame transfer" is a good name for this double.

 

As best I can tell, the standard meaning is (1) over a 4♥ preempt and (2) over a 4♠ or higher preempt. Assuming this understanding, I blame south on this hand for doubling with unsuitable shape. What will he do if north bids a four-card spade suit or a five-card diamond suit? South needs to either pass here or bid 5♣ (I prefer pass).

 

Of course, if your double agreement is (2) then it's all north's fault, and if your agreement is (4) then I blame the methods.

[gnasher]

100% to South. The correct result is 5♣x -2.

[OleBerg]

100% to South.  The correct result is 5♣x -2.

Tend to agree with this.

 

Anyhow, when opponents pre-empt, we bid under the assumption that the opponents have their bid. Here they have 19 hcp and 8 hearts betweem them. Normally that would backfire for them, but here they are so lucky, that NS's values are awkwardly placed, bidding-wise.

 

When South chooses to double, I would probably pass on the North hand.