Best line for 5C?

[Fluffy]

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=sjhk7da862c875432&s=saq93ha10852d7ca96]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

The bidding (it didn´t matter, but it was lovelly :blink: )

 

S. N

1♥-1NT (F1R)

2♣-2♠ (shape raise in ♣)

3♦-5♣

 

The lead is ♦Q

[bridgeboy]

Nice Problem here.. My line: (Probably nowhere near the best)

 

Ace D Takes

K H

Ace H

H ruff. *

D Ruff

H ruff

D ruff

ace club

last heart gd discard D.

 

Only scope for problem is when H gets over ruffed (either in front or behind) with a singleton honor and you lose 2 more trumps at the end

 

Not sure if it is better to draw ace club at the beginning... You might lose out when H 4-2 gets overruff and defender draw another trump. You might have to fall back on S finesse then.

 

I rather hope that the man with short H is NOT with a singleton honor in trumps :blink:

[Flame]

A♦

J♠

case A: east got the K and covers (doesnt matter if he doesnt cover)

take A of spade

heart to the K

ruff diamond

small spade ruff in hard (you are not playing the Q first)

ruff another diamond at the table.

play A of club

play Q of spade and drop the diamond and you have 11 tricks no matter what.

 

case B: west taking the K of spade

you need a 2 2 club break, if west continue anything but D, you can play trump before you ruff the diamond and before you draw the spades which is good, if he continue diamond, you have to ruff it now you must play the spades before you can draw all trump (you can take out only the A of club) which mean you will lose if spades are 2-5.

[cnszsun]

I will take Flame's line.

If ♠K is onside, you can win 11 tricks by cross-ruff even if trumps are 1-3.

If ♠K is offside, you can still prevail when trumps are 2-2.

The problem of trying to setup ♥s is you may be defeated when trumps are 2-2.

-----------------

It seems i'm wrong here, this line always works if trumps are 2-2, so it's better.

[Flame]

actually bridgeboy's line which i must confest looked redicules to me at the begining is better then mine, only you shouldnt ruff a diamond in hand, you can get in with club to the A or with spade to the A.

[whereagles]

At table I would probably ruff a heart and see what happens.

[mishovnbg]

Ruffing 3th ♥ - and can be too late to make. Opp all time silent with hcp most of time means bad breaks in our first bidded (♥) suit. Even 2nd ♥ can be bad...

Line with direct finesse of ♠ or ♣ 2-2 (70%) is more than enough imho.

Misho

[whereagles]

Actually, if opponents are silent but have hcps, chances are they have balanced hands. Not a bad omen for ruffing a heart.

[Fluffy]

I am with bridgeboy, I at start thoug this hand was for cashing ♣A, a more closely analysis makes me think that somene having 2♥+1♣ is so unlikelly, less than ♥4-2 and ♣1-3 with ♠K offside I think. But someone may calculate :rolleyes:

 

Also the first line has more chances when ♥ are 5-1, you will then switch to ruff twice and ♠ finese.

 

 

For those who expect the real hand I am sorry, ♥ were 3-3 ♠K onside and covered ♠J, everything you tried would work (even playing ♣A and ♣)

[mishovnbg]

I am with bridgeboy, I at start thoug this hand was for cashing ♣A, a more closely analysis makes me think that somene having 2♥+1♣ is so unlikelly, less than ♥4-2 and ♣1-3 with ♠K offside I think. But someone may calculate :D

 

Also the first line has more chances when ♥ are 5-1, you will then switch to ruff twice and ♠ finese.

 

 

For those who expect the real hand I am sorry, ♥ were 3-3 ♠K onside and covered ♠J, everything you tried would work (even playing ♣A and ♣)

2♥+2♣ and K♠ off also down - just wrong way in easy game...

[mishovnbg]

Actually, if opponents are silent but have hcps, chances are they have balanced hands. Not a bad omen for ruffing a heart.

Depend of level of opp... It is almost sure good player, esp W second round, will dbl for take out with length in unbid suits.

Misho

[Fluffy]

when ♣ are 2-2 and ♥ 4-2 or 3-3 I think you win either cahing ♣A or not cahsing.

[mishovnbg]

when ♣ are 2-2 and ♥ 4-2 or 3-3 I think you win either cahing ♣A or not cahsing.

yes, my mistake, sorry, I read cnszsun post and didn't analyse myself 2-2 trumps. Still my opinion, as well as good players I asked is line with finesse of ♠ is better, because is simple and with enough high percentage, while ruffing ♥ is hard to calculate at table.

Misho

[Flame]

misho i think just like me the line with the heart ruffing looks wierd to you, its just not something you should usually and therefore for us expirence players it looks wierd but i think here its the best, it win everytime hearts are 4-2 or 3-3 and might servive even if not.

[whereagles]

What's so wierd about setting up dummy's long suit? Looks normal to me.

[Flame]

What's so wierd about setting up dummy's long suit? Looks normal to me.

well it wasnt normal to me.

Can you explain to me, how do you play this like i was your student, i mean what is your plan, do you count losers or winers ?

[Trpltrbl]

If ♣ 2-2 it is fairly simple hand.

I assume it is not so, with 4-0 I can't make, so they have to be 3-1.

Setting up the ♥ is I think your best bet.

You can combine your chances a little too.

First I will cash my Ace of ♣ and then ruff the ♥ high.

The hand with the short ♥ is more likely to have to long ♣, so he is ruffing from his winners anyhow.

 

Mike ;)

[whereagles]

Can you explain to me, how do you play this like i was your student, i mean what is your plan, do you count losers or winers ?

If I were teaching someone to play this hand I would argue as follows.

 

"You have two ways to play this hand: either ruff diamonds in the short hand or setup dummy's hearts. Since ruffing all your diamonds is risks going down if trumps break 3-1 and ruffing only two diamonds makes you depend on a 2-2 trump break or the spade finesse, you should try the hearts. If hearts are no worse than 4-2, you take 5 clubs, 1 diamond + 1 ruff, 3 hearts, 1 spade = 11 tricks. Maybe 12 if trumps break 2-2."

[Flame]

you take 5 clubs, 1 diamond + 1 ruff, 3 hearts, 1 spade = 11 tricks. Maybe 12 if trumps break 2-2."

You cant ruff diamonds in your hand because this will make you lose controll over the hand.

Also you cant take out the A of club first like said before you.

I guess over the many years i play i develope a sense for most hands play, and this one is not include there and thats what made it one hard for me.

[whereagles]

Hum.. ruffing a heart was the first thing that come to my mind.

[Flame]

Hum.. ruffing a heart was the first thing that come to my mind.

Ruffing a 5-2 suit without taking trumps out first is not everyday play, you know you will be overruffed.

playing from the short side usually only happend after transfer.

ruffing at the long trumps side only, which is called reversing dummy isnt that common especially when your short side is so weak.

I guess those are among the ressons why there is no pattern for this hand in my mind.

[Fluffy]

The key for this play to become familiar to you you need to think this way:

 

The only losers you are gonna get on tis deal are 2 trumps! even if they are 2-2 or 3-1, that means after you have cashed ♣A you have ALREADY DRAW THE REMAINING TRUMPS, I mean, after that you just trty to develop dummy´s long suit and/or ruff your losers in dummy, if you get overruffed at anypoint it is a trick you would be gonna lose anyway, do you ever draw the trump A when they ducked it twice?: no, (ok, there are rare cases in wich you want to do) jsut wait them to get it when they wish ruffing or overruffing whatever. This is just the same.

 

The only hazard involved here is that you may lose your ♦ control before enjoing your last ♥, in that case defence can cash a ♦, that is why like bridgeboy said not cashing ♣A gives some advantage, but that is just an small improvement (and actually will lose to some few cases where cashing wins) derivated from the former line of play.