Cayne vs Madoff

[pigpenz]

after reading a review of the downfall of Bear Stearns in the NY Times the other day I was starting to think if there really any difference between Bernard Madoff and James Cayne?

[hrothgar]

My impression is that Cayne was in over his head and exercised poor judgement.

 

Madoff was an out-and-out crook. I'm not sure whether he started out as one, but he sure ended that way. Claiming to run an investment fund when you are operating a Ponzi scheme isn't the same thing as screwing up...

 

This distinction might not mean much to individual investors looking at their balance statements. However, it does seem salient.

[Al_U_Card]

I am not sure that Cayne wasn't more a victim of his advisors....once the hedge funds started using Scoles-type equations and the mathematicians made things incomprehensible for the common man....altho applying the tried and true "If it seems too good to be true, it isn't." would have served well in both cases.

[USViking]

I am not sure that Cayne wasn't more a victim of his advisors....once the hedge funds started using Scoles-type equations and the mathematicians made things incomprehensible for the common man....altho applying the tried and true "If it seems too good to be true, it isn't." would have served well in both cases. 

 

Oh.

 

So now the Wall Street Jimmie Moneychurners

of the world are "victims".

 

Well why didn't I realize that before?

 

For the last several months I have been considering

myself to be a victim of people like Mr. Wall Street

Jimmie Moneychurner.

 

And now it turns out we are all victims of a cabal

of evil Wall Street mathematicians!

 

Golly, I am glad that I now know my anger should

be redirected. Thanks, pal, for tipping me off.

[hanp]

I agree, blame the Scoles-type equations. They won't fight back.

[hrothgar]

I am not sure that Cayne wasn't more a victim of his advisors....once the hedge funds started using Scoles-type equations and the mathematicians made things incomprehensible for the common man....altho applying the tried and true "If it seems too good to be true, it isn't." would have served well in both cases.

What a joke...

 

Look at the basic definition of fiduciary responsibility. There's nothing in there about being good natured, but incompetent. (And from what I understand about Cayne, he doesn't have good natured to fall back on)

 

The entire point of having a CEO is that he is supposed to be competent to run the business. He might not need to be able to micro manage every single project (Indeed, many people, myself included, would say that's a bad trait in an executive).

 

He does need to be capable of picking good advisers and exercising good judgment.

[mike777]

after reading a review of the downfall of Bear Stearns in the NY Times the other day I was starting to think if there really any difference between Bernard Madoff and James Cayne?

In reading House of Cards I see where Cayne's business basically went broke in one week. They had about 400 billion in assets, 18 billion in cash and about 80 billion more in assets than in what they owed. Yet in one week other companies lost Confidence in Cayne's company and refused to do business with him. Government regulators and the accountants said no problem.

 

 

OTOH Madoff had about 1billion in cash, assets of about 1billion and owed about 50-60 billion. Government regulators and his accountant said no problem. No one ever lost Confidence in Madoff until he turned himself in.

[fred]

after reading a review of  the downfall of Bear Stearns in the NY Times the other day I was starting to think if there really any difference between Bernard Madoff and James Cayne?

One big difference as far as this site is concerned is that Cayne is a member of BBO and, to the best of my knowledge, Madoff is not.

 

If you feel inclined to go after Jimmy Cayne (or any other BBO member), please show a little common sense and good taste and do your thing on some other site.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[kenberg]

We will all have to stop telling Sara Palin moose jokes if she joins BBO?

[Al_U_Card]

The CEO that tells his plant manager to illegally dump waste into the environment is a criminal. If one of his workers dies in an industrial accident, he may be criminally negligent if their safety practices were inadequate. If the worker made an error in practice or judgement then not the CEO's fault.

 

As far as criminal malfeasance by JC.....remains to be seen. Regulators are only as strong as the muscle that you give them.

[qwery_hi]

We will all have to stop telling Sara Palin moose jokes if she joins BBO?

Yeah.

 

Would you make a Palin joke if you were playing her at a table? Think of BBO Forums as a huge virtual table

[kenberg]

We will all have to stop telling Sara Palin moose jokes if she joins BBO?

Yeah.

 

Would you make a Palin joke if you were playing her at a table? Think of BBO Forums as a huge virtual table

Not if she were carrying.

 

 

Actually I pretty much agree with you, I was just having a little fun.

[barmar]

after reading a review of  the downfall of Bear Stearns in the NY Times the other day I was starting to think if there really any difference between Bernard Madoff and James Cayne?

One big difference as far as this site is concerned is that Cayne is a member of BBO and, to the best of my knowledge, Madoff is not.

 

If you feel inclined to go after Jimmy Cayne (or any other BBO member), please show a little common sense and good taste and do your thing on some other site.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

Fred, I usually agree with you regarding proprieties, but in this case I think you should give in.

 

The financial crisis is fodder for discussion in many forums. But the specific case of Jimmy Cayne is particularly interesting here BECAUSE he's also one of the most well known bridge players. Is it really reasonable to expect us to tiptoe around him when we're having discussions of the mess that he was a major player in?

 

As far as I can tell, although he's a BBO member he doesn't participate in the BBF, so he's not seeing these messages. But even if he were, I think that's too bad. When you're a public figure, you need to develop a thick skin. He's been lambasted in the mainstream press, I hardly think our little water cooler discussion is going to hurt him.

 

Regardless of what we think of him as a CEO, I think most of still appreciate his bridge accumen, and hope we'll be able to continue kibitzing him.

 

My personal opinion is that JEC was not significantly at fault. When a bubble is growing, you practically HAVE to go with it -- that's where all the investors are going, you can't just ignore them. And when it bursts, the shrapnel hits everyone; Bear-Stearns just happened to be one of the first.

 

This was a widespread systemic problem. For a 10-minute, entertaining explanation, see http://crisisofcredit.com/. For a longer, but still entertaining, explanation listen to the This American Life podcast The Giant Pool of Money.

 

If you want a comparison with Madoff, I don't think you should demonize Cayne. In effect, all of Wall Street was a big Madoff, as the whole sub-prime mortgage system was effectively a huge Ponzi scheme. The difference in this case is that there was no guy at the top, orchestrating it and raking in all the profits, it was just Wall Street in general. There's no one to prosecute for getting us into this mess, because the perpetrators were all of us.

[kenberg]

Discussing what went wrong and who screwed the pooch seems like a fair topic. The tone on this thread was perhaps not the best.

[atlantajon]

Well....this one I have to go against the field. I do not believe that discussing a fellow player can come to ANY good, regardless of the situation. The concept of "ZERO Tolerance" should extend beyond the limits of the table. Would you consider acting like a fool in the lobby of an event? I think not....therefore the same should happen here in our forum.

 

Active ethics enables players to compete on equal terms. In addition, the actively ethical player contributes to the enjoyment of all players by continuously striving to maintain a courteous attitude toward both his opponents and his partner and by avoiding any behavior that would make anyone uncomfortable. (Both at the table, and in all activities surrounding our game) These social attributes are VITAL to the game of bridge and duplicate bridge.

 

And BBO, and bridge as a whole will be better if we all take this to heart....

 

Lets give Jimmy a break...the same way we would give a novice player a break for making a bad bid...... (at least most of us would...I hope!!)

 

Thanks,

 

Atlantajon - Jonathan Slaney, Atlanta, GA.

[matmat]

Well....this one I have to go against the field.  I do not believe that discussing a fellow player can come to ANY good, regardless of the situation.  The concept of "ZERO Tolerance" should extend beyond the limits of the table.  Would you consider acting like a fool in the lobby of an event?  I think not....therefore the same should happen here in our forum.

b**ls**t.

[shintaro]

:)

 

Just curious

 

Is it pronounced

 

MAD OFF or MADE OFF

 

cos he certainly Made off with a lot of money

 

:)

[kenberg]

Well....this one I have to go against the field. I do not believe that discussing a fellow player can come to ANY good, regardless of the situation. The concept of "ZERO Tolerance" should extend beyond the limits of the table. Would you consider acting like a fool in the lobby of an event? I think not....therefore the same should happen here in our forum.

 

Active ethics enables players to compete on equal terms. In addition, the actively ethical player contributes to the enjoyment of all players by continuously striving to maintain a courteous attitude toward both his opponents and his partner and by avoiding any behavior that would make anyone uncomfortable. (Both at the table, and in all activities surrounding our game) These social attributes are VITAL to the game of bridge and duplicate bridge.

 

And BBO, and bridge as a whole will be better if we all take this to heart....

 

Lets give Jimmy a break...the same way we would give a novice player a break for making a bad bid...... (at least most of us would...I hope!!)

 

Thanks,

 

Atlantajon - Jonathan Slaney, Atlanta, GA.

Jonathan,

 

I regard Zero Tolerance as a slogan, and not a particularly good one. I am pretty sure that it was you who responded to a bridge question I posted a while back by saying "my grandmother would have gotten this one right". Now maybe Helen Sobel is your grandmother but I took the comment to mean that you thought my question was too obvious to require serious thought. I am not in the least complaining about your response, but beware the advocates of Zero Tolerance.

 

A few years back I was playing against a pair and the woman on my right kept up a constant stream of jabber about anything and everything. I figured I could block it out for the two boards at her table but about midway through the bidding of the second hand I lost it and said, in raised voice, something like "Jesus Christ will you please shut up". I'm not sure I said please. Not my best move but it happens. I would like to be judged in such natters by my overall history of demeanor at the table as well as the particular circumstances at hand.

 

With regard to this thread, I see no point in discussing an issue formed as "Is Jimmy Cayne no better than a convicted felon?". Discussing what went awry, including the role of various individuals even if they are fellow bridge players, should not be out of bounds. I am fully prepared to acknowledge that Jimmy Cayne knows more about how to run a company (and how to play a bridge hand) than I do but the country and world have had some serious financial reverses and discussion seems relevant and proper.

[pigpenz]

dang...when I posted this I had no idea that it would take off where it did....we've had guest appearance by Fred and so on and so on.

 

My original thoughts were one was a criminal and one wasnt but were running businesses that werent what they appeared to be.

 

I dont know James Cayne from a hole in the ground but whatever he was doing he was making a hell of alot of money for running a company as its CEO

[Lobowolf]

Well....this one I have to go against the field. I do not believe that discussing a fellow player can come to ANY good, regardless of the situation. The concept of "ZERO Tolerance" should extend beyond the limits of the table. Would you consider acting like a fool in the lobby of an event? I think not....therefore the same should happen here in our forum.

Too bad former President Bush (Jr.) didn't play bridge; it would have been good for his approval ratings and public criticism, at least among bridge players.

[y66]

If Bill Clinton played bridge, maybe that whole Monica thing would have blown over. Then he, Rubin and Greenspan might have had a chance to seriously discuss proposals for regulating derivatives.

 

Edit: When is Chuck Norris going to weigh in on this mess?

[BillHiggin]

If Bill Clinton played bridge, maybe that whole Monica thing would have blown over. Then he, Rubin and Greenspan might have had a chance to seriously discuss proposals for regulating derivatives.

 

Edit: When is Chuck Norris going to weigh in on this mess?

We do not use "blown" in a sentance containing those two names :)

[Winstonm]

atlantajon Posted: Mar 19 2009, 12:09 AM 

 

Well....this one I have to go against the field. I do not believe that discussing a fellow player can come to ANY good, regardless of the situation. The concept of "ZERO Tolerance" should extend beyond the limits of the table. Would you consider acting like a fool in the lobby of an event? I think not....therefore the same should happen here in our forum.

 

I'll have to check with NewSpeak and the Ministry of Truth before I respond.

[y66]

Sorry Bill. Forgot to consult the water cooler style guide. If he were a BBO member I would, of course, retract that.

[Rain]

If we keep the discussion civil and non-sarcastic, I find it acceptable to discuss Cayne and Madoff's role in their respective financial crisis, as the opening post seemed to intend. Please stop straying from topic.

 

They are both public figures helming companies that control a lot of money. But they're hardly alike. Cayne built Bears up, and was really just doing what almost everyone else was doing, by most accounts. Madoff knew his company was a pyramid scheme, and tried to milked it even more at the end when he knowingly tried to give out bonuses early and transfer assets to his wife.

 

I think I read somewhere that Cayne tried his best to pay as much debt as he could towards the end, and he went down with the ship instead of focusing on negotiating wonderful bonuses to be paid out somehow. That's old school. I find it rather admirable.