Overcall question?

[patchesp11]

With ♠K65 ♥A105♦K86♣A873

 

In direct position I overcalled 1 diamond with 2 diamonds

Left hand oponent doubled partner passed and I went 2NT

as escape. partner bid 3 hearts which happen to make plus one

 

What was the correct overcall if any? I dont post michaels on my bbo card.

As my partner how would you iterpret the 2 diamond q bid ?

[ArtK78]

The "book" call is pass, since no other call is appropriate.

 

I am sure there are some who can't resist making a call on a 14 count, in which case they will either overbid 1NT or misdescribe their shape by doubling.

[hanp]

I would recommend pass to a beginning bridge player, though I expect most experts would double.

[Lobowolf]

I much prefer 1NT to double with this hand. Perfectly flat, no 4-card major, and you're only fudging by a point. One of those kings is probably worth an ace behind the opener.

[barmar]

Before Michaels cue bids became popular, the traditional meaning of a direct cue bid of an opening bid was a really strong (at least 18 HCP) takeout, but you obviously didn't have that. You also didn't have a natural ♦ suit. So what did you think your 2♦ bid meant? If you just wanted to get partner to bid a suit, why didn't you make a takeout double?

 

These days, Michaels is so common that I think many partners will assume you're playing it even if you don't have it on your card. There's no other likely meaning if you make a cue bid. So if you don't want to play Michaels, don't overcall 2♦ like this.

 

Landing in a makable contract on the 3 level was incredibly lucky.

[patchesp11]

To Barmar in response to ur question.. , at the time, I thought it asked partner to bid and showed that I had a good opening but couldnt overcall or double and had no normal bid to make. I think I see ur point on the take out double, if I was going to lie a little why not lie with a TO double.

 

Tks

[the hog]

I would pass, which I suggest would be the call of the majority of experts. Some might double; I don't like that call. 1NT with this hand is a very poor bid imo.

[Codo]

You may double, but why should you?

 

I would pass and I am sure that this is what B/Is should do with this hand. It is of real big importance to learn and understand that a pass not always shows a weak hand and that partner must act accordingly.

 

And I agree with Ron about all he said.

[hotShot]

To get to some reasonable contract, your partner needs a 5 card suit and 7-8 HCP.

Now compare that, with the requirements for a reopening.

 

Your LHO would be to weak to bid.

 

So if you pass now and your partner reopens, everything is fine.

If your partner does not reopen or LHO is strong enough to bid, you can be glad that you did not bid and that you gave no helpful informations to your opps.

[Hanoi5]

I'd double 1♦ as the only way to enter the bidding. Pass now and it would be problematic unless partner enters the bidding. Of course you don't want to give information to the opponents when they play the hand but tanking now and then passing will create a bigger problem.

 

If you don't use michael's you have to be clear on what cue-bids should mean. They can be natural (specially over minors) or very strong (18+ and distributional) but this hand does not qualify for either. Bidding notrump is also a bad idea, you don't want to play NT when they open unless you're sure to have more HCP than they.

[Codo]

Why do you want to enter the bidding?

 

There most be more benefit then costs. So which are your benefits?

 

I will tell you some of the costs:

 

1. Every bid is a slightly misdescribtion. YOu will not be able to show partner later this kind of hand.

2. When you double pd may overcompete, not visualizing your 3334 shape.

3. When they outbid you, they may have an easier way to place you with all the values. Espacially after they found out that you have 3 diamonds for your double.

4. It is far from clear that the later bidding will be easier after a double. Lets say, pd speaks positive with a major, will you have the tools to describe such a balanced hand?

 

Of course there are big downsides with passing and with bidding a suit (or even NT) too.

But do you know enough upsides for doubling to think that doubling now is superior?

[Hanoi5]

My definiton of a take-out double is:

 

- Opening bid values. Usually this means at least 12 HCP but it could be less if you are shorter in their bid suit(s).

- At least 3-card support in the unbid suits. There's a preference towards having 4-card Majors but this shouldn't deter you from doubling.

- You should be short in their suit(s). I know everyone would double if one of the diamonds were a heart or a spade but having more HCP gives me the 'push' I need to enter the bidding by doubling. The longer you're in their suit the more HCP's you need to double, so if you have 3 cards in their suit you need at least 13.

- Some exceptions like 17+ distributional hands or 19+ NT hands.

 

1. Why would I need to redescribe my hand later in the auction? I think this will only happen if partner jumps in a suit (showing 9-11 HCP) or if he cue-bids (showing 12+). If he jumps I can rebid 2NT or 3♦ or even support his suit at the 3 level 'inviting' partner to game. If partner cue-bids I'll bid 3♣ which shows that clubs is my suit and that I don't have any 4-card Majors; partner has space now to bid 3♦ to ask for a ♦ stopper or maybe pass or bid his 5-card or longer suit. Game would then be highly likely, except if we reach 3NT for my 4333 doesn't provide many tricks.

2. If partner overcompetes on his own he'll be to blame for I will never compete, I'm just telling partner I have an opening hand so that he can compete as his hand pushes him to, which should be good with my HCP's.

3. Yes, this is very true (I even mentioned that doubling would give info to the opponents), but then again I'm expecting our side will have more HCP's and play the hand ourselves.

4. I think I already answered this in 1.

 

My honors in this hand rate to be well placed, opener is more likely to have the aces in the pointed suits so playing or defending they'll probably become tricks.

 

I am not stating that double is a wtp, I just say that it is better for describing the hand early which will be good if the hand belongs to us. Pass is also an option but it will sometimes lead to bad results when the hand is ours.

[Codo]

1. Why would I need to redescribe my hand later in the auction? I think this will only happen if partner jumps in a suit (showing 9-11 HCP) or if he cue-bids (showing 12+). If he jumps I can rebid 2NT or 3♦ or even support his suit at the 3 level 'inviting' partner to game.

You think that

( 1 ♦) X (pass) 2♠

(pass) 2 NT shows this hand? Not in the wildest dreams.

Same is true about 3 ♦, both bids show significant extra strength and no 3334 with 13 HCps.

 

If partner cue-bids I'll bid 3♣ which shows that clubs is my suit and that I don't have any 4-card Majors; partner has space now to bid 3♦ to ask for a ♦ stopper or maybe pass or bid his 5-card or longer suit. Game would then be highly likely, except if we reach 3NT for my 4333 doesn't provide many tricks.

2. If partner overcompetes on his own he'll be to blame for I will never compete, I'm just telling partner I have an opening hand so that he can compete as his hand pushes him to, which should be good with my HCP's.

 

When partner cuebids he has two possible hands: Both majors 8+ or any hand 11+

You won't miss anything in this case by passing, because he will reopen the bidding anyway.

 

 

My honors in this hand rate to be well placed, opener is more likely to have the aces in the pointed suits so playing or defending they'll probably become tricks.

 

I am not stating that double is a wtp, I just say that it is better for describing the hand early which will be good if the hand belongs to us. Pass is also an option but it will sometimes lead to bad results when the hand is ours.

 

When your honours are tricks, they are tricks in defence or in offense, this is no reason to bid.

Double misdescribes the hand, it shows a hand with 19+ HCPS or with shortness in their suit. As the overall strength is fine, you can choose bids which misdescribe your hand.

But pass does not misdescribe your hand, because there is simply no rule that you need to bid when you have 12 or more HCPS.

Of course double can work great where passing fails, f.e. after biddings like

1 ♦ pass 1 NT pass pass

 

and partner has an undisclosed 5 card major. So you do risk something with passing, but in my opinion much less then with doubling, 2♦ or 1 NT.

[andy_h]

Agree with hanp

[jdonn]

Personally I would always double and don't consider it close to any other action. But if hanp or any person who is a good bridge teacher, which I'm not, told me that I shouldn't recommend it to a new player then I'd say that's fine.

[el mister]

Could people enlarge on the take out double aspect of 4-3-3-3 hands containing 12-14 hcp? It sounds like this is not a recommended action in the direct seat - are there any features that would persuade you to double?

 

Last night, I doubled for TO on the following directly over a 1♦ opening:

 

♠AK5 ♥K653 ♦Q107 ♣743

 

which, given that it is weaker than the OP's example, I am guessing is (far) too weak?

[Trumpace]

There is a lecture on BBO about takeout doubles by Geoffrey Spavin which might be useful.

 

Login to BBO -> Other Bridge Activities -> Bridge Library -> English -> Lectures -> Transcript of Takeout Doubles.

[hanp]

Could people enlarge on the take out double aspect of 4-3-3-3 hands containing 12-14 hcp? It sounds like this is not a recommended action in the direct seat - are there any features that would persuade you to double?

 

Again, I wouldn't recommend doubling with such 4333 hands to an inexperienced bridge player, but to answer your question:

 

Holding 4333 shape I am more likely to double with a 14-count than with a 12-count. This is a significant difference.

 

I am more likely to double with xxx in the suit opened by the opponents then with honors in the suit. Axx is fine, but a defensive holding like KQ10 is terrible. We are encouraging partner to compete, so the more defensive our hand is the worse it could be. For example, if we double 1D and the auction continues:

 

(1D) - Dbl - (3D*) - 3H

 

Then I'd much rather have AQx A10x xxx QJxx than AQx xxx KQ10 QJxx, even though the latter hand has more HCP.

 

I am more likely to double if I have an honor in each side suit.

 

I am more likely to double if I have a 4-card major.

 

With the given hand I would certainly double (14-HCP, "fast" honors: aces and kings). It is important that partner knows this, if I double then he shouldn't expect me to hold a perfect 4414 shape most of the time, usually I don't have the perfect shape. Double isn't perfect, but in my opinion 1NT is terrible and I think that pass will costs too much in the long run. If you pass now you won't be able to enter the auction later unless partner does first, and you can easily miss a good partscore or game. Double is relatively safe and partner won't be too disappointed with my support for any suit he bids.

 

Oh and I'd lke to add that I have never doubled a suit opening bid with 12-14 points and 3334 shape with 4 cards in their suit. I know there are world class players who are more wiling to do so but I won't.

[1eyedjack]

I much prefer 1NT to double with this hand.  Perfectly flat, no 4-card major, and you're only fudging by a point.  One of those kings is probably worth an ace behind the opener.

I prefer pass, even if I were to elevate myself to expert. That said I prefer double to 1N. This hand is worse than a normal 15 count in my view by more than 1 high card point. The odd King may be worth slightly more than 3, but that is more than made up by the lack of shape, lack of source of tricks, lack of intermediates, lack of just about anything really. At least if I double I have 3 card support for any suit partner chooses.

 

To the OP - the classical use of an overcall that is a cue bid of the suit opened, if not playing Michaels or some other 2-suited variant, is to show some enormous game forcing hand yet to be described. Not recommended these days because (1) it is low in frequency and (2) when it happens it is usually because you have extreme shape and are vulnerable to opposition pre-emptive bidding before you get to describe your shape.

[barmar]

Colchamiro's book has a reasonable rule of thumb for direct takeout doubles: the number of cards you hold in opener's suit should be at most the second digit of your HCP. So you can double with 11 HCP if you have 0 or 1 cards in their suit, and you need at least 13 HCP to double with 3 cards.

 

Maybe you can shave a point off when you hold the Ace in their suit, since it's one less loser and it's well positioned over the bidder. But in general you prefer honors in your long suits, where they'll work together with partner's cards.