Advancing a takeout double

[TimG]

♠AQ5 ♥J63 ♦K76 ♣9854

 

You are in 2nd seat, vul v nv. The auction starts:

 

P-P-1♥-DBL

P-1N-P-2♥

P-?

 

I think 1N would win the forum vote as advancer's best option after the takeout double. Intervenor has read the forums, too, and knows to check for a real stopper before bidding 3N. What do you do now?

[dicklont]

2♠.

With four spades and these values I would have bid 2♠ in the previous round.

Partner, who already knows to dubbelcheck my stoppers, will probably interpret this a three spades, but might think it's a lousy four with a heart stop and no shortness.

 

What's next? Does my understanding friend proceed with 3♥?

[hrothgar]

♠AQ5 ♥J63 ♦K76 ♣9854

 

You are in 2nd seat, vul v nv.  The auction starts:

 

P-P-1♥-DBL

P-1N-P-2♥

P-?

 

I think 1N would win the forum vote as advancer's best option after the takeout double.  Intervenor has read the forums, too, and knows to check for a real stopper before bidding 3N.  What do you do now?

Hi Tim

 

I think that there are three bids worth considering:

 

1. 3♥ If 2♥ asks for a real heart stopper, I'd think that 3♥ should deny a full stop, but show a half stop.

 

2. 3♣: Showing your longest suit should always be an option

 

3. 2♠: Getting out at the two level has its merits, and partner probably won't be expecting 4 pieces.

 

On this hand, I think that I feel best about a 3♣ bid.

 

A Moyisan isn't appealing with the tap in the long hand and 3=3=3=4 shape.

 

3♥ forces us pretty high. (I'd feel a lot better about this bid if I had another queen)

[ASkolnick]

I tend to like 3♥. We play raise of a cue-bid asks for a half-stopper. I am not so sure why everyone is worried about getting so high. We have 10 HCP in an 8-11 HCP range and partner has shown certainly in equivalent playing strength to a 15+ HCP hand.

[Finch]

♠AQ5 ♥J63 ♦K76 ♣9854

 

You are in 2nd seat, vul v nv. The auction starts:

 

P-P-1♥-DBL

P-1N-P-2♥

P-?

 

I think 1N would win the forum vote as advancer's best option after the takeout double. Intervenor has read the forums, too, and knows to check for a real stopper before bidding 3N. What do you do now?

Really?

 

I have no idea what to do, because I would never have bid 1NT on these cards. So my partner's 2H bid isn't asking for a heart stop, because I've promised one.

 

If I'm going to play a method where 1NT shows 8-10 nothing about stops (as Jeff Rubens likes to play) then I've agreed what I'm supposed to bid over the cue bid when I don't have one.

 

So I bid according to my agreements. What are they?

[hanp]

What would you bid instead Frances?

[Finch]

Oh I know it's a nightmare hand, it's why Rubens likes to bid 1NT. But that's a long way from 'standard' and I think if you are going to play unusual methods you have to agree them, you can just guess later.

 

Playing 'normal' methods, I've shown a heart stop. Partner's cue indicates that he has extra values, he doesn't have a suit of his own to bid, perhaps he is 4144 17-count or something - but even then, playing with me, he could just raise NT.

 

Playing methods where I've agreed to bid 1NT on this hand type, apparently we've also agreed that 2H asks for a stop. I haven't got one, so I bid something else. What have I agree with my partner?

 

I would have bid 2C over the double. I don't pretend that solves the problem, but at least I know what the continuations mean!

 

If partner cued over that, I would raise the cue bid - but the position is now completely different as I have shown no values so far.

[TimG]

So I bid according to my agreements.  What are they?

Perhaps my question should have been more plainly: do you have special agreements about how to proceed after a stopper-ambiguous 1NT advance? Regardless, what do you do now?

[whereagles]

I like 3♥. Pard is strong, we got a max. What can go wrong? Let's check for that stopper.

[Codo]

I like 2 ♠ to show a good 3 card suit.

Pd may bid 2 NT or 3 ♥ if he has a full or half stopper in hearts.

[MFA]

My 1NT in this sequence is much more NT oriented than for instance 1NT in: 1m-(1♥)-X-(p)-1NT where it just shows a balanced hand.

 

Partner won't have a balanced hand here unless he is strong enough for a slam try.

 

So it's hard to see that we belong in 3NT. But let's see. I'll bid 2♠ now which will usually be a good 3-card suit. If he continues with 3m over this, I'll raise.

[jdonn]

I like 3♥, a maximum with a partial heart stopper and nothing else I want to bid. (Everyone sure 2♠ isn't Qxxx KJx Axx xxx?)

 

Frances I really don't understand your comments. Tim didn't say 1NT is "standard" he just said he thought it would win a vote on the forums (I think it would too.) It really seems like an obvious bid to me, but I have never agreed to methods where 1NT doesn't show a stopper, any more than you have agreed to a method where 2♣ has a range of 0-10 or even wider (or have you?) I don't know in what way someone could think 2♣ describes this hand better than 1NT, or why you think your way is "normal" but the other way is not "standard", but I won't pretend that makes 1NT standard either since I don't know what that means here.

[IdiotVig]

Semi-hijack: For those of you bidding 1NT, then bidding 3C/3H afterwards (especially 3H), is partner's 3S/4m forcing? Based on the parameters from OP, since partner knows it's possible you can have a hand like this, is this a sequence where you can get out below game?

[TimG]

[hv=d=e&v=n&n=skj86ht8daqt4cak2&s=saq5hj63dk76c9854]133|200|Scoring: IMP

P-P-1♥-DBL

P-?[/hv]Here is the companion hand. I'm interested in your auction (the opponents will remain silent from here on out) whether or not you would advance 1N. (I'm assuming no one has any problem with the double, but if I'm wrong, by all means, speak up.)

[gnasher]

Maybe this is wrong, but I'd expect 2♥ to show a more suited-oriented hand. With the North hand I'd just raise notrumps.

 

If North has only an invitation, we might have the auction:

 

p-p-1♥-dbl

1NT-p-2NT-p

3♥-p-3♠-p

4♠

 

Obviously, this doesn't solve the problem if the North hand is worth game.

[Codo]

I advocated 2 Spade and think that you can reach a nice 4-3 fit after this without much problem.

[benlessard]

Its a messy auction but..

 

1Nt----2H

3C----3D

3S-----4S

 

 

1Nt is normal and doesnt deny 4S in my book. 2H is the only i dont know where to go bid (3nt is also reasonnable because our hand is balanced). 3C & 3D is looking for 5m. 3S only show 3 since we bypassed 2S (or if you like some bridge SM and bondage it can be an advanced cuebid for diamond).

[MFA]

I think it's resulting not just to raise NT's with the north hand. This is also why I don't find the 1NT response at all clear-cut.

[Codo]

Why is it resulting?

 

When 1 NT promises a stopper raising NT is a no brainer.

But when 1 NT promises just some HCPS and a balanced hand, why shouldn't you ask your partner where you belong?

[MFA]

But when 1 NT promises just some HCPS and a balanced hand, why shouldn't you ask your partner where you belong?

That would be very unusual.

As I understood the bidding, the 1NT bid was normal and natural but just happened to be flawed.

[Finch]

Frances I really don't understand your comments. Tim didn't say 1NT is "standard" he just said he thought it would win a vote on the forums (I think it would too.) It really seems like an obvious bid to me, but I have never agreed to methods where 1NT doesn't show a stopper, any more than you have agreed to a method where 2♣ has a range of 0-10 or even wider (or have you?) I don't know in what way someone could think 2♣ describes this hand better than 1NT, or why you think your way is "normal" but the other way is not "standard", but I won't pretend that makes 1NT standard either since I don't know what that means here.

I didn't make my point very well.

What I was trying to say was:

 

If I have specifically agreed that 1NT does not show a stop, then surely I've agreed how to bid on after the 1NT bid. Tim has clarified that he was asking about how to bid on after a 'stopper ambiguous' 1NT bid i.e. asking what agreements you ought to have.

 

If my agreement is that 1NT shows a stop - as it looks as if yours is as well - but I happen to have bid 1NT anyway on this hand because I think it's the best option, then I'm in completely different position; in particular the 2H bid doesn't mean "do you have a stop?" because I've already shown one. Instead it means something else (probably a strong 4144 or 4045 although I've not discussed it with anyone).

 

Having seen partner's hand, if I play 'normal' methods, surely partner would just raise 1NT to 2NT or 3NT, and gnasher's auction is possible (a bit resulting, but possible). Note that even with a combined 27-count 4S is basically on the DJ coming down which is OK but not huge - in fact after the auction 1H x P P 1NT P 3NT (pushy) you might avoid a heart lead at all, which would be amusing.

 

If I have the partnership agreement that 1NT may not have a stop, then certainly I should agree what continuations mean over partner's 2H bid. I would assume that anything other than 2NT should deny a stop, which means that 2S should be a 3-card suit because with 4 spades and a heart stop I bid 2NT now.