Rebid Major or 2nt

[jdaming]

You hold:

[hv=d=s&v=b&s=sq76hak965d753ckt]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Bidding goes:

1♥ - P - 2♦ - P

????

 

Playing "2/1" what do you bid?

 

What is the most common style these days?

 

I will give the responders hand later and will ask more questions

[CSGibson]

Most common style is to rebid the major as a catchall. I rebid 2N as a catchall, showing a flat hand either in the 12-14 HCP range, or in the 18-19 HCP range.

[whereagles]

I find the common style of rebidding 2NT on 12-14 or 18-19 rather unplayable in the long term. Prefer 2♥ catch-all.

[fromageGB]

I don't know what the most common style is, but I think it important to have some way of showing your strength. For me, I need 15/16 to go above the level of 2 of my major, so I now rebid 2♥, which does not show extra length. If partner wants to find out, he will rebid 2NT to let me bid out my shape, in this case 3NT.

 

Interestingly, while others mention bidding 2NT with 2-way strengths, I find it works the other way. I bid 2♥ if 17+, and then show life on the next round.

[mtvesuvius]

2♥ is my catchall. I have the other suits stopped, but IMO this is too weak for a 2NT rebid (which I play as Good 12-15), which certainly shouldn't be 2 way. I'll try 2♥, give me some more spots and I'll bid 2NT.

[Phil]

2♥. Need a 4th trump with a hand this weak to raise.

[jdonn]

I don't understand the comments about 2NT as a catchall showing balanced hands. That means it's natural, not a catchall. Here we are balanced with the unbid suits stopped so unless I am playing 2NT shows extras (which I do with one person) then I bid 2NT.

[P_Marlowe]

2H, since for me 2NT would show a strong NT.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[zasanya]

2H, since for me 2NT would show a strong NT.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

Didnt quite understand this.The system given is 2/1 and surely that means strong No trump?Is it that you do not open 1NT with a 5 card major?

For others why should 2NT require anything other than 12-14; remaining 2 suits stopped and a flat shape??What is the danger?

[mike777]

You hold:

Dealer: South Vul: Both Scoring: IMP

♠ Q76 ♥ AK965 ♦ 753 ♣ KT

 

Bidding goes:

1♥ - P - 2♦ - P

????

 

Playing "2/1" what do you bid?

 

What is the most common style these days?

 

I will give the responders hand later and will ask more questions

I would rebid 2nt

 

that means partner thinks I have a balanced 11-13 pt hand with 5 hearts and no decent 4 card second suit.

 

Not perfect but I choose tolive with it.

[P_Marlowe]

2H, since for me 2NT would show a strong NT.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

Didnt quite understand this.The system given is 2/1 and surely that means strong No trump?Is it that you do not open 1NT with a 5 card major?

For others why should 2NT require anything other than 12-14; remaining 2 suits stopped and a flat shape??What is the danger?

We dont open 1NT with a 5 card major.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Codo]

As the voting showed, both styles have their followers. In 2/1 you can play it both ways.

 

I prefer 2 ♥ , but just because I am so used to it from the 10 years of SEF and other systems like wj2005 where 2/1 is not always really gameforcing.

 

In a real 2/1 GF system I guess that 2 NT is the much better bid.

[fromageGB]

For others why should 2NT require anything other than 12-14; remaining 2 suits stopped and a flat shape??What is the danger?

There is no reason why you can't say it is 12-14. But then, what do you do with 15/16 (assuming that you do not normally open 1NT with a 5 card major)? And what do you do with 17+? If these bid 2NT as well, then partner does not have a clue how strong you are, and when he bids 3NT it is risky for you to go on.

 

If you bid jump 3NT with some of these ranges, then again you cannot distinguish between the 2 of the 3 ranges that have the same bid. Bidding 3NT is a bad idea anyway, as now there is no room for partner to show 3 hearts short of bidding game.

 

If you accept the above as problems, then you can avoid them by assigning just one range to the 2NT rebid, and do something else with the others. My partnerships assign 15/16 to the 2NT rebid. For the others we just rebid 2♥. This does not show 6 cards. It is game forcing, so if partner wants to know if it is 6 he can rebid something (commonly 2NT) and then we can repeat the hearts to show 6. On the current hand I would over his 2NT raise to 3NT, bidding my shape. This shows 12-14. If I had 17+ I would bid 4♣, which can be what you wish, eg Gerber, but for us is a general asking bid.

 

So there is no danger in rebidding 2NT : you just have to have methods to describe a variety of hands with as much accuracy as you can.

[ArtK78]

I am in a game forcing auction. I have a balanced hand with values in every other suit than partner's suit.

 

I bid 2NT.

 

What am I missing?

[Stephen Tu]

There is no reason why you can't say it is 12-14. But then, what do you do with 15/16 (assuming that you do not normally open 1NT with a 5 card major)? And what do you do with 17+? If these bid 2NT as well, then partner does not have a clue how strong you are, and when he bids 3NT it is risky for you to go on.

 

It's not that difficult. It's common to play 2nt = 12-15/18-19.

So with 16-17, jump to 3nt, partner with appropriate hand can go on.

(One can of course play 12-14 2nt, 15-17 3nt, but I prefer a tighter range for 3nt, and don't find you miss too many good slams rebid 2nt with 15)

With 18-19, bid 2nt, if partner signs off in game try again with 4nt, again partner

has a reasonable range to work with.

 

You won't go too far wrong that often this way. I don't know why whereagles considers this unplayable. Perhaps he could explain why he feels this way.

[oldman5757]

I am in a game forcing auction.  I have a balanced hand with values in every other suit than partner's suit.

 

I bid 2NT.

 

What am I missing?

You're not missing anything. It's just a matter of partnership agreement. I think the default in 2/1 is that 2♥ shows a balanced minimum without a good 4 card second suit, and no extra ♥ length, but playing 2NT as minimum/maximum, or playing it as showing 15-17, as I prefer, are all fine with me, as long as I know that's the way you or anyone else plays it.

 

IMHO, it's just one of the MANY areas in 2/1 that's not well defined, so you have to agree on it, and it's the very first question I ask in any new 2/1 partnership. :)

[the hog]

I am in a game forcing auction. I have a balanced hand with values in every other suit than partner's suit.

 

I bid 2NT.

 

What am I missing?

2NT is 2 bids higher than 2H. Over 2H you can bid 2S or 2NT as an artificail ask or relay. Lower and more efficient than over 2NT.

[the hog]

There is no reason why you can't say it is 12-14. But then, what do you do with 15/16 (assuming that you do not normally open 1NT with a 5 card major)? And what do you do with 17+? If these bid 2NT as well, then partner does not have a clue how strong you are, and when he bids 3NT it is risky for you to go on.

 

It's not that difficult. It's common to play 2nt = 12-15/18-19.

So with 16-17, jump to 3nt, partner with appropriate hand can go on.

(One can of course play 12-14 2nt, 15-17 3nt, but I prefer a tighter range for 3nt, and don't find you miss too many good slams rebid 2nt with 15)

With 18-19, bid 2nt, if partner signs off in game try again with 4nt, again partner

has a reasonable range to work with.

 

You won't go too far wrong that often this way. I don't know why whereagles considers this unplayable. Perhaps he could explain why he feels this way.

With a balanced 15-17 don't most people in the modern world open 1NT?

[Stephen Tu]

With a balanced 15-17 don't most people in the modern world open 1NT?

- Some of us are playing 12-14 opening NTs, and don't like being forced to open all 12-14 w/ 5cM with 1nt.

- Even playing strong NT, there are some who use judgement whether to open 1nt or 1M based on suit quality, presence of 3oM, holdings in other suits, etc.

- I was answering someone who asked what you do if you don't open 1nt with 15-16 and a 5cM, read the posts!

 

2NT is 2 bids higher than 2H. Over 2H you can bid 2S or 2NT as an artificail ask or relay. Lower and more efficient than over 2NT

 

- If 2nt is tightly defined, you don't need as much space since hand types are limited

- The more bids you lump into 2H, the more bids you need afterwards to untangle them all.

 

It's not necessarily more efficient. What hand type would you use 2nt to show in its place?

 

This is a non-argument. If this was a valid argument, then the logical extension would be that opener should rebid 2h 100% of the time over 2d, no matter what he holds. After all it's "lower and more efficient".

[the hog]

With a balanced 15-17 don't most people in the modern world open 1NT?

- Some of us are playing 12-14 opening NTs, and don't like being forced to open all 12-14 w/ 5cM with 1nt.

- Even playing strong NT, there are some who use judgement whether to open 1nt or 1M based on suit quality, presence of 3oM, holdings in other suits, etc.

- I was answering someone who asked what you do if you don't open 1nt with 15-16 and a 5cM, read the posts!

 

2NT is 2 bids higher than 2H. Over 2H you can bid 2S or 2NT as an artificail ask or relay. Lower and more efficient than over 2NT

 

- If 2nt is tightly defined, you don't need as much space since hand types are limited

- The more bids you lump into 2H, the more bids you need afterwards to untangle them all.

 

It's not necessarily more efficient. What hand type would you use 2nt to show in its place?

 

This is a non-argument. If this was a valid argument, then the logical extension would be that opener should rebid 2h 100% of the time over 2d, no matter what he holds. After all it's "lower and more efficient".

Stephen I suggest that it might be useful if YOU learn some basic manners. You might find life a little easier.

 

As to the second comment, it is hardly a "non argument." Rebidding 2H with most minimums allows you to show other hand types more efficiently. For example bidding 3m shows better than minimum, values. personally I would reserve a 2NT bid for the hand of death or a very strong s/s hand. A 3C relay can clarify which type.

[Stephen Tu]

Your original post was a non-argument. Basically you said "2h is a better bid than 2nt because 2h is lower than 2nt" which has no probative weight behind it. In order to argue this, you'd have to demonstrate a set of hands where this extra space gets you to superior contracts that people who bid 2nt on these hands cannot reach.

 

You said nothing about artificial 2nt rebids etc. You could also say "I prefer to reserve 2nt as an artificial strong rebid showing set of hands (???)", which gets far afield of the original question and conditions, saying that std methods handle this set of hands poorly, and that you don't think throwing extra min bal hands into 2H hurts your 2h rebid auctions too much. That would be OK too. But your original post made absolutely no mention of this, just saying lower = better with no other justifications.

 

You also might want to define "hand of death".

[david_c]

I am in a game forcing auction.  I have a balanced hand with values in every other suit than partner's suit.

 

I bid 2NT.

 

What am I missing?

2NT is 2 bids higher than 2H. Over 2H you can bid 2S or 2NT as an artificail ask or relay. Lower and more efficient than over 2NT.

I also prefer the style where you rebid 2H on this hand, but I don't agree that this is the reason. For me it is because if you play 2NT as showing a minimum balanced hand then your 2H and 2NT rebids are too similar. You already have a 2H rebid which includes a variety of balanced and semi-balanced hands, so you don't need another bid which covers the same ground.

 

Let's say opener has a minimum balanced hand with a small doubleton spade. Presumably he doesn't want to rebid 2NT with this, so he has to bid 2H.* So now you're going to need a way to show a balanced hand (without a spade stop) after 1♥:2♦,2♥:2♠. Well, however you decide to do this, you could easily use the same thing when you have a balanced hand with a spade stop. So, while in principle Stephen is right to be worried that "The more bids you lump into 2H, the more bids you need afterwards to untangle them all", in practice you can include the 2NT hands in 2H without having to find any new sequences to show them. Really, a minimum balanced hand is extremely easy to show after a catchall 2M bid - you just keep making minimum no-trumpy noises.

 

Admittedly, you might find hands where it would be useful to have the negative inference that 2M won't be a balanced hand without side-suit weakness. But it's so much more useful to use 2NT for something that is genuinely "different" from the 2M rebid. Natural with extras is the usual choice, or you can play it as single-suited, or an artificial raise, or even some sort of transfer - whatever takes your fancy. Anything is better than just having two different ways to show the same hand.

 

 

*If you do want to bid 2NT with a small doubleton spade - which I think is just weird - then change the example to a 2524.

[fyrish]

I thought that playing 2♥ as "catch-all" meant a hand not suitable to bid a new suit, raise partner or bid NT. This hand can rebid NT comfortably (for me 12-14 or 18-19). If you don't open 1NT with a 5cM then you have to do it differently I suppose.

 

I've no idea what is standard as I live in Acol land.

[whereagles]

I also prefer the style where you rebid 2H on this hand, but I don't agree that this is the reason. For me it is because if you play 2NT as showing a minimum balanced hand then your 2H and 2NT rebids are too similar.

Which is why I use the 2NT rebid to show a 6 carder with broken suit. That makes the 2M rebid limited to about 14 or so, making it much simpler for responder to evaluate level of play.

[mike777]

There is no reason why you can't say it is 12-14. But then, what do you do with 15/16 (assuming that you do not normally open 1NT with a 5 card major)? And what do you do with 17+? If these bid 2NT as well, then partner does not have a clue how strong you are, and when he bids 3NT it is risky for you to go on.

 

It's not that difficult. It's common to play 2nt = 12-15/18-19.

So with 16-17, jump to 3nt, partner with appropriate hand can go on.

(One can of course play 12-14 2nt, 15-17 3nt, but I prefer a tighter range for 3nt, and don't find you miss too many good slams rebid 2nt with 15)

With 18-19, bid 2nt, if partner signs off in game try again with 4nt, again partner

has a reasonable range to work with.

 

You won't go too far wrong that often this way. I don't know why whereagles considers this unplayable. Perhaps he could explain why he feels this way.

With a balanced 15-17 don't most people in the modern world open 1NT?

good question...many WC never do with a 5 card major

 

 

OTOH many do with almost all hands within range....

 

side note I am one of those who rebid 2nt(11-13) over 2/1...99.9% never rebid 5 card major.

 

Yes that means 1s=2d=3c can be 11 hcp....5-4 hand.....that means partner must assume I got junk.