Brutal juice, brutal

[Phil]

r/w, IMPs

 

KQx xx KTxx AJ9x

 

3♣ - double - 4♣ - ?

 

In case you need to ask, double is responsive.

[helene_t]

Pass or 4NT. I think I will pass. If p can't bid again I think 4NT goes down most of the time.

[kfay]

Well I'm pretty confident we're making 5♦ and 6 seems likely. But if we don't have slam I'd like to knock them off 800.

 

I guess 600 v. 800 isn't so bad but missing slam would be worse so we should focus on that. But there's really no good way to get there. The best I can think of is bidding 4♦ now. If partner bids 4♠ (he can hardly pass with a void after I take a free bid, right?) then I COULD bid 5NT pick-a-slam but I think 6♦ is probably the better bet.

 

If I bid 5♦ now partner isn't well placed at all to make a decision. So I think I'll take it slow. If partner doesn't bid 4♠ I'll just bid 5♦ and be content. If he raises diamonds... well... I'll bid 6 now too. I guess this is his most likely action. But bidding 6♦ directly is insane because partner might go bonkers.

 

4♦

[dicklont]

4♦.

Partner has a club void so he could be doubling light(-ish) but can also be very strong. We probably belong in 5 or 6 diamonds.

I show my longest suit, and leave it up to partner to make a slam try.

If he signs off I pass (and maybe regret it), if he cues I cooperate.

[MFA]

Double. I pass 4♠, raise 4♦, and bid 5♦ over 4♥. The last one is very ugly. But 4♠ over 4♦ would also be ugly :angry:.

[jdonn]

Double. I pass 4♠, raise 4♦, and bid 5♦ over 4♥. The last one is very ugly. But 4♠ over 4♦ would also be ugly :angry:.

I would do the same but bid 4♠ over 4♥. I risk a 3-3 spade fit, you risk a 4-2 diamond fit. Against that, neither is so likely when we are this long in clubs since partner is probably short.

 

Ugly indeed.

[ArtK78]

Perhaps I am missing something. To me, 4♦ is technically nonforcing. Yes, partner is 99% sure to be void in clubs and he is unlikely to pass 4♦. But making a constructive call after bidding 4♦ is going to be difficult.

 

The idea of making a responsive double and then bidding on afterwards has some appeal. But if I do double and, over 4♥, bid 5♦, won't partner expect a more shapely hand, perhaps 4-5 in the pointed suits?

 

Slam is certainly not a sure thing on these cards. Partner could easily be 5440 with any 5 card suit and without the usual strength for a double of a three level preempt.

 

I would bid 4NT as the best of a bad lot of choices. But I have sympathy for the responsive double.

 

Tough problem.

[Echognome]

I think I'll go with the double then correct 4♥ to 4♠ route. Partner is very likely to be void in clubs, so there should be some playable spot and double is the easiest way to find it. I wish I could correct 4♥ to a natural 4NT, but that isn't in my arsenal (not that I'm saying it should be).

[kfay]

Double. I pass 4♠, raise 4♦, and bid 5♦ over 4♥. The last one is very ugly. But 4♠ over 4♦ would also be ugly :angry:.

I would do the same but bid 4♠ over 4♥. I risk a 3-3 spade fit, you risk a 4-2 diamond fit. Against that, neither is so likely when we are this long in clubs since partner is probably short.

 

Ugly indeed.

Yeah this strategy definitely has merit. The chances are practically 0 that we are in a 3-3 spade fit if it comes to that and my ace of clubs spares us the 1st round tap. Now maybe we can get home with 3 aces and 2 jacks from partner. But if this is what he has then 6♦ plays practically as well. Also if this is what he has then we should probably just pass and await the very likely 2nd double.

 

IMO partner must be 5440 unless the opps are jokers. With a 3-card major suit I wouldn't double but just bid my 5cM.

 

I just can't figure the odds on how often partner will pass my 4♦ bid. It seems almost inconceivable that he would. At first glance I admit it seems totally insane to bid 4♦ but I think it's a decent approach.

 

Edit: Blah, but then again how often is partner going to pull a 4♠ bid out of his hat over 4♦ when he's likely to have a minimum opener in HCP and this is definitely a stronger bid. So once I bid 4♦ I'm kinda commiting myself to 6♦ following this strategy so maybe it's just best to bid 5♦ directly. Now partner can maybe raise with a couple bullets.

 

But then with 5 spades and no slam I'd just want to play there. So double I guess it is for me.

[MFA]

Double. I pass 4♠, raise 4♦, and bid 5♦ over 4♥. The last one is very ugly. But 4♠ over 4♦ would also be ugly :angry:.

I meant "But 4♠ over 4♥ would also be ugly", of course.

[rogerclee]

I agree with Michael, I think bidding 5♦ over 4♥ is better than bidding 4♠ over 4♥.

 

Josh, I don't think the point of bidding 4♠ vs 5♦ is a matter of reaching a ridiculous fit (which will basically never occur, though a 3-3 spade fit is certainly more likely than a 4-2 diamond fit). I think it is usually a case of reaching a 4-3 spade fit by bidding 4♠ or a 4-4 diamond fit by bidding 5♦. I think a 4-4 diamond fit at the 5-level will be better than a 4-3 spade fit at the 4-level.

[mikeh]

I once had an opp raise his partner's favourable vul preempt on a stiff, and while the details are lost in the murky depths of memory, I do recall that the outcome was bad for us. So I wouldn't be entirely sure that partner has a void.

 

Also, with this much stuff, I think it naive to assume that partner will usually reopen. 4♣ by responder is a 2-way bid... it may be the limit of the preempt he is able to make but it may also be the 'nudge them one level higher then whack them' approach.. and partner can't tell... unless, of course, we tank over the 4♣.

I think one would need to be a very seasoned player to make one's choice quickly here, so that almost eliminates pass for the majority of players.... we can't put that ethical pressure on partner.

 

If we are able to pass in tempo... what then? If he has a reopening double, surely we are cold for slam..maybe grand. I suppose we cue 5♣ and raise diamonds or spades, while over hearts we bid spades (he won't reopen with a second double if his only long suit is hearts).

 

But I prefer the double then bid scenario.. including bidding 4♠ over 4♥... if he is 3=5=4=1 or the unlikely 3=5=5=0, my sequence will tell him that I have short hearts and interest in 2 suits, so he can, I would argue, retreat to diamonds at least some of the time when our spade fit is 3-3. In my dreams :rolleyes:

[dicklont]

I agree with Michael, I think bidding 5♦ over 4♥ is better than bidding 4♠ over 4♥.

 

Josh, how often will we reach a 4-2 diamond fit?

I think that the main problem with playing 4♠ in the 4-3 fit is that they might be worse than 4-2 after this bidding.

 

A 4-2 diamond fit is unthinkable.

Partner would be 6520 for that and bid 4♣ in the first place.

 

BTW: I have heard of a player that raised his partners 3♣ opening to 5♣ on a singleton after a double.

Both opponents "saw" the club singleton or void in partners hand.

Their slam went one off in trick 2 on a club ruff.

[rogerclee]

I agree with Michael, I think bidding 5♦ over 4♥ is better than bidding 4♠ over 4♥.

 

Josh, how often will we reach a 4-2 diamond fit?

I think that the main problem with playing 4♠ in the 4-3 fit is that they might be worse than 4-2 after this bidding.

 

A 4-2 diamond fit is unthinkable.

Partner would be 6520 for that and bid 4♣ in the first place.

 

BTW: I have heard of a player that raised his partners 3♣ opening to 5♣ on a singleton after a double.

Both opponents "saw" the club singleton or void in partners hand.

Their slam went one off in trick 2 on a club ruff.

Sorry I changed my post, since I didn't see that Josh wrote about how infrequent either a 4-2 diamond fit or a 3-3 spade fit is.

 

I don't think I am experienced enough to know with what frequency opponents like to joke around with their 3m-4m auctions. I suspect it is not very high, but maybe it is worth some serious consideration given that we have 4 clubs.

[jdonn]

Yes I'll reitterate it is quite unlikely. One possible way to reach a 4-2 diamond fit is opposite a 5422 hand (yes I realize this would make the opponents insane). Partner certainly can double with that shape especially wish lousy spades, and then over the double he should definitely bid 4♥ in case we have the red suits.

 

Anyway with this many clubs maybe I should downgrade the odds of a 4-2 diamond fit to 'almost impossible'. Could be a 4-3 though.

[oldman5757]

 

I would bid 4NT as the best of a bad lot of choices.  But I have sympathy for the responsive double.

 

Tough problem.

Strongly agree with 4NT, but I have less sympathy for the responsive X. If P bids 4♥, then we are just guessing what to do next. 4 ♦ isn't forcing, and pass puts far too much pressure on P to reopen.

 

4NT is the most descriptive bid we can make, and if P decides to move, at least he knows that I have some probably wasted ♣ values. I think 4NT is probably making, and if it's not, who knows whether anything else is. We'll have another problem on the next round if P bids again, but I'll try to get it right on this round, so P can make a better decision. I wouldn't be shocked if my LHO now bids 5 ♣ and makes us guess again. :rolleyes:

[Fluffy]

pass and hope for the best.

[Phil]

Pard held this hand and passed. I didn't reopen on Axxx AKTxx Jxx x.

 

I think this hand calls for a 4N call, as long as its natural. A responsive double is OK, but we are we busting our backs to get to 5♦?

 

4♦ is dreadful IMO.

[hanp]

Agree with you Phil.

[Apollo81]

I'd pass. It's not clear we can make anything. On a good day partner will reopen with a double.