Preference or slam invitation ?

[KnutH]

Hi all,

 

What's your opinion on this one:

 

1♥-P-2♣-P

3NT-P-4♥ ?

 

Preference or slam invitation ?

[xx1943]

Playing 2/1 the 3NT bid is terrible if there is no conventional meaning agreed.

With strong hand bid slow. 2♣ promises a 2nd bid, so there is no reason to jump like an kanguruh. 2NT shows 12-14 OR 18-19. If partner raises to 3NT you can show your 18-19 with a quantitative 4NT.

 

Playing SAYC 3NT shows 18-19 I guess. 2♣ shows 10+ HCPs. In this range (with 28-31 combined HCP) 3NT is always better than 4♥. So the 4♥ bid is strongly inviting to slam. It is forcing for 1 round at least asking opener to cue or go RKCB.

[Codo]

There are many school of thoughts.

 

I guess the most popular treatment is to play 3 NT as exactly 5332 with 15-17 HCPs.

 

In this case 4 ♥ is simply to play. Maybe you look at xxx,Axx,x,KQJxxx and think that 4 Heart is safer/gains more tricks. With SI you can make an advanced cuebid.

 

But when you read throught the convention cards at bbo, you will see that this bid (1 Heart 2 Club 3 NT) has different meaning.

 

Just from the FD-Files:

 

It is not defined in Sayc

It is 18-20 without clubs in SEF.

It is 15-17 with 2 clubs in bbo advanced (aka 2/1)

It is not defined in wj2005 (but is is 15-17 5332 here too)

 

So I would play it as Slam invitation in SEF and to play in the other systems.

[Gerben42]

A Preference, with for example 3 = 3 = 1 = 6. 3NT is well-defined enough for partner to know what he wants. And apparently he wants to play 4♥.

 

What the range for the well-defined 3NT is... now that's another question. Minimum for me.

[mikeh]

There are many school of thoughts.

 

I guess the most popular treatment is to play 3 NT as exactly 5332 with 15-17 HCPs.

 

In this case 4 ♥ is simply to play. Maybe you look at xxx,Axx,x,KQJxxx and think that 4 Heart is safer/gains more tricks. With SI  you can make an advanced cuebid.

 

But when you read throught the convention cards at bbo, you will see that this bid (1 Heart 2 Club 3 NT) has different meaning.

 

Just from the FD-Files:

 

It is not defined in Sayc

It is 18-20 without clubs in SEF.

It is 15-17 with 2 clubs in bbo advanced (aka 2/1)

It is not defined in wj2005 (but is is 15-17 5332 here too)

 

So I would play it as Slam invitation in SEF and to play in the other systems.

The most popular approach with 5332 15-16 hcp in NA is arguably to open 1N, so we should scratch that holding from the mix for many players.

[mikeh]

Hi all,

 

What's your opinion on this one:

 

1♥-P-2♣-P

3NT-P-4♥    ?

 

Preference or slam invitation ?

Knut: this problem, as posted, is of no real utility.

 

No-one can tell you what the 4♥ means, not even the player who bid it, unless we are informed as to the meaning of 3N.

 

If I were playing opposite an unknown partner.. and he threw this at me, both he and I would be guessing. I'd be guessing what he meant. He'd then be guessing what I guessed it meant, and so on. Therefore neither player would know what either bid meant.

 

Tell me what 3N was intended to show, and I will tell you what 4♥ 'should', imo, be.

 

BTW, bridge logic tells me that the best use for 3N is natural, too big for a 1N opener.... 5332 with good 17-19 hcp. That automatically makes 4♥ a slam try.. but is it a forcing bid? Just because it shows slam interest need not make it forcing, so even answering the OP question is only half the battle.

[kenrexford]

Yeah, we don't even know if this is 2/1GF or Standard.

 

FWIW, I would take 3NT in 2/1GF with "frequent" 1NT on a five-bagger as showing a 6322 15-17 count (-ish), without discussion.

[skjaeran]

For me 3NT is 5332 18-19.

And 2♣ followed by 4♥ shows a GF (vs a min 1♥ opener) with 3-card support. Thus 4♥ is a slam try, but NF.

[kenrexford]

For me 3NT is 5332 18-19.

And 2♣ followed by 4♥ shows a GF (vs a min 1♥ opener) with 3-card support. Thus 4♥ is a slam try, but NF.

I don't believe you.

 

I think 3NT shows 5332 and 17-18, because you would open 2NT with 5332 and 19.

 

B)

[hanp]

For me 3NT shows 16-17 and 4H is to play.

[KnutH]

Hi all, and thanks for the replies.

It seems there are various ways of interpreting this bidding sequence. The board was played on BBO with the 2♣/4♥ bidder having sayc as profile (nothing more) and the 3NT bidder had a 5-3-3-2 hand with 17 points. I suppose the 3NT bidder tried to adopt to partner's sayc (?) and (mis)interpreted the 4♥ call as preference. Outcome was 7 tricks....

 

Thanks again for all your insight.

[neilkaz]

"The board was played on BBO with the 2♣/4♥ bidder having sayc as profile (nothing more) and the 3NT bidder had a 5-3-3-2 hand with 17 points."

 

Noting that many non-Americans who say that they play SAYC don't play Jacoby 2NT, I most certainy would interpret this pull to 4♥ as preference if playing with any pickup. PD interested in slam can bid something else.

[H_KARLUK]

I m trying to explain simple and natural which we were used to think as general partnership agreement without discussion to new partners at our local clubs in this city since many years.

1H>2C GF /say 12+ C suit may contain 4 cards

3N>Ty but i m 13-14 will try my chance for 3NT with 25-26 HCP by partnership cards; since 2NT still forcing one round and pass not expected i decided to give a shutout bid with any limit 5332. If i had a 4+cards side suit for sure I wld show it. Moreover I dont have 3+ clubs to support yr 4/5 cards clubs.

4H : I got yr message p. Well not today, my distribution unbalanced , why dont u try safer 4H contract with ruff chances. Srry, i cant use any convention (Gerber/RKCB) or bid a new suit to ask a mild slam possibility under such circumstances. My rebid also denies J2N. If I had i wld use directly while i found a good fit to your opening suit.