Bid spades when you have them

[Wackojack]

[hv=d=n&v=e&n=sqh752dq87642c1094&w=sa76hq10943dj9cj85&e=skj2ha86dk1053ca62&s=s1098543hkjdackq73]399|300|Scoring: IMP

- pass 1NT dbl*

2♦pass2♥pass

pass pass

* alerted as ♠ + another

[/hv]

 

In a team match that I was kibbing this hand came up. I dont know if the double of 1NT to show spades and another is a home made convention, but its use was evidently responsible for losing 6 imps. 2♥ was made and at the other table south overcalled 2♠ making. It got me thinking. Why when you have spades, would you want to bid anything but spades, unless you have a strong 2 suiter? If you make a cheaper bid, you are in danger of letting the opps in to steal the auction, particularly if they find a 9 card fit. It normally does you no good to find an 8 card minor fit if the opps manage to find an 8 or 9 card heart fit that they would not otherwise have done. They are let into the driving seat of the competitive auction.

 

So I thought, what about all the other conventional defences to 1NT that do not bid spades holding a 5 card spade suit? They all suffer from this disavantage. The only defence that I know of that might not, would be Landy, when you hold 5+ spades and 4+ hearts. Here the possibility of a heart fit makes the pre-emptive effect of the 2♠ overcall less likely to be an overall winner.

 

Isn't better to keep it simple, particularly when simplicity is more effective?

[matmat]

on best defence, wouldn't 2♠ be off a couple?

[Codo]

-1?

[MFA]

I agree with overcalling 2♠.

Not impressive defense to let 2♠ through.

[Finch]

The problem seems to have been at the other table.

Isn't either 4H or 3NT making by East?

[jdonn]

The problem seems to have been at the other table.

Isn't either 4H or 3NT making by East?

Are you suggesting they should have bid it? Seems lucky to me.

[awm]

It can be useful to distinguish between hands which have essentially self-sufficient spades (like six decent ones) versus hands which have fairly lousy spades (say five mediocre ones). In the first case, you want partner to pass you in 2♠ pretty much all the times that game seems out of reach (even with a small singleton or void in spades). In the latter case, you probably wouldn't bid a mediocre five-card suit on a 5332 hand (dangerous) so you have at least one other reasonable place to play, and you want partner to "save you" from 2♠ holding a singleton or void in the suit (or maybe even a small doubleton at times).

 

A lot of us judge that partner making the right decisions here is more important than constantly preempting the opponents auction (for the same reason we don't open a weak 2♠ with both six reasonable spades and five lousy spades with a side minor). So typically there are several ways to show spades, one that shows "just spades" and one that shows "spades and another suit" (in fact sometimes the "spades and another suit" sequence is broken up further based on the identity of the other suit, hearts in particular being important to show).

 

With a 6-4 hand, there are several options including showing "just spades" (because you do have six of them) showing "spades and another" (so partner knows about your side suit) or in some cases showing "spades and another" but then rebidding spades if reasonable. My tendency is to show "just spades" if my spades are decent, but on the given hand the spades are lousy and it seems reasonable to emphasize the "two-suited" nature of the hand rather than the spade suit.

 

On the actual hand, I don't think anything ridiculous happened. 2♠ will not make on best defense. If the lie of the cards were a bit less friendly, 2♠ could easily be doubled and down multiple tricks. And E/W can easily make 3♥ (or 3NT, although this is not very biddable).

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

Why when you have spades, would you want to bid anything but spades, unless you have a strong 2 suiter?

One reason is, that you want to go in with a weak 2-suiter to disrupt the opponents

bidding.

Usally a partnership has the best agreement set after a NT opening, and you want

to disturb their constructive auction.

If they open a strong NT (15-17 or stronger), they have on average 23HCP between them.

 

Hence there is a high chance, that they actually have enough for game, 25HCP,

make it 30%-40% of the time, of course this does not gurantee, that game makes.

 

Your aim should be to make their life as hard as possible to find the best game.

To do this with a reasonable frequency, you need to go in even with 2-suiters,

which are not strong 2-suiters.

But if you do this, you need a safety net, that allowes you to play in a reasonable

fit on the 2 level, if they start to make penalty doubles.

=> If you bid spades with a weak 2-suiter, you will play your best fit on the 3

level, and now they have an easier time to get rich by trying to kill you.

 

The above logic is the logic, which led to the development of DONT or Lionel (*),

the convention which was in place on the table. (I was South).

 

The double showing a 2-suiter with spades allowes p to kill the 2 level if he is to

bid, and he makes the cue (**) more expensive, that it would be, if the double

showed heart+?.

 

(*) A 2S bid, showing a 6 carder would have been possible, but I tend to agree

with selling the hand as a 2-suiter, but it is a judgement thing.

 

(**) If you dont like the option to cue you gave to the oponents, than you may go

with Woolsey, where X showes a 2-suiter (Minor - Major) (one option contained in

the double), but you loose the option to preempt.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[DRWTAHOE]

What do you and your partner use to an opponents 1no? 1 of several if the convention applys. Astro, Brozel, Capp, DON’T, etc. I use DON’T and I use the rule of 8 to decide if it advantagous to disrupt. So with the hand displayed my bid would qualify for a 2 spade disruption.

[Wackojack]

Yes, I can see that 3♥ can make, even 3NT and 2♠ will be down 2 on not too difficult defence. The issue is, how do we make life as hard as possible for opps to find the optimum contract. My argument is that if opps have a heart fit, we make it easier for them if we give them the room to show hearts at the 2 level. Thus overcall 2♠ when you have spades unless you are so distributional that you can out bid them.

 

Doubling or overcalling 2♣ or 2♦ for that matter, putting the onus on partner not to take matters further if he does not have spade support (or both minors*) looks like mock sabre rattling to me. Either go in with guns blazing or dont go in at all.

 

* If you do find a minor suit fit, more often than not, the opponents are in better position to judge the final outcome.

[pirate22]

There is a Mechanism for pards-the opps used it p--1n/t--bid 2 hts(Transfer to spades in 2nd position)--- by using x not recommend next opp transferred with 2d? was this alerted? for pard to bid hts

 

now if west has clubs and not hts, same shape and value bids xx over the x to ask pard to bid clubs this situ ok- As N/S green v red- but red v red or red v green not sure :P)

regards

[the hog]

-1?

Should be -2, but probably will be -1

 

X to how S is part of Lionel.

 

I quite like Mosher over a NT. Well not seriously but it is difficult to forget and easy to play. It is also heaps better than that awful Capp.