Walddk Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 [hv=d=s&v=n&s=sa10ha42dkq109653ca]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]You are playing in the Yeh Bros Cup when this hand comes up. Your system is natural, and you open 1♦. Partner responds 1♥. This caused a problem in the two matches on vugraph, and a few other matches too actually. What is your next bid? Please explain why. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echognome Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Seems to be an analog of the Bridge World Death hand (although the BWDH typically is 3-6). I would bid 3♦ and recognize that there is no ideal solution. Some will have a gadget for this hand, others will not. "Chacun à son goût." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 I saw the deal. I would bid 3♦. Apparently this worked well at one table and badly at another so who is to say? I don't think the hand is good enough for a fake jump shift, though in principle I don't mind making one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtvesuvius Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 3♦, understating my values somewhat, however the best option available imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerclee Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 I think this is a pretty tough problem. 3♦ is an underbid, but both 2♠ and 3♣ (which are right on values but really wrong on shape) are pretty likely to get our side into a lot of trouble. I would bid 3♣ but don't feel that strongly about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotShot Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 I want to know about partners 5th ♥, so I need a forcing bid that describes my hand and does not set ♦ as trumps, so that I hear about partners ♥. Partner is likely to have 4♣ and/or 4♠ so bidding a black suit will put him on the wrong track. This leaves 3♦ as unsatisfying bid. What do you think about opening this hand with 1 or 2 NT to avoid the rebid problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtvesuvius Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 What do you think about opening this hand with 1 or 2 NT to avoid the rebid problem? No! That would be way worse than this rebid problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 I think this is a pretty tough problem. 3♦ is an underbid, but both 2♠ and 3♣ (which are right on values but really wrong on shape) are pretty likely to get our side into a lot of trouble. I would bid 3♣ but don't feel that strongly about it. 3♣, and I feel OK about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASkolnick Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 This would be another advantage of playing 1♦ followed by 2♣ as forcing. While normally it would show a club suit in addition, I get the added bonus of not getting too high and finding out if partner has a 5th heart. My hand can shoot way up in value if I have support, and if not, I can always go back to the same 3D I was going to bid anyway. Even if he raises to 3♣, I can just bid 3♦ to show this type of hand. The problem with minors in the intermediate range is that you: 1) Don't want to Game Force.2) You want to find out about the possible 5th major to know where you belong.3) The only contract you don't get to play in is 2♣. I am sure, there are times when you may get too high, but I think you know a lot more information about responder's hand to make the right decision. But if I don't have that available, I bid 3♦ as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted February 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Most of us think that 3♦ is an underbid. I mean, vulnerable at IMPs, how would you be feeling if it goes all pass? For the sake of argument, let's pretend that partner responded 1♠ instead. Would you still rebid 3♦, or would you consider a reverse into 2♥ if ... - 1. You have no agreement. 2♥ is a natural reverse.- 2. You have a gadget. 2♥ is an ambiguous reverse, and responder has a 2NT relay available to ask for clarification. As for 2., this is how the top Italian pairs play 2♥ in this situation. Similarly, on the actual hand, they can make a 2♠ jump shift without promising a suit. Can be a hand too strong for a 3♦ rebid like here, with or without 3-card heart support, but can also be natural, 4-5+ in spades and diamonds. Again, 2NT asks for clarification. How do you like that? Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonesome31 Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 3♦,CLEAR & SIMPLE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 What do you think about opening this hand with 1 or 2 NT to avoid the rebid problem? lol, if 1NT describes the strength of this hand, it is a 3♦ rebid. But actually I voted for a 2NT rebid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 2NT WTP :). This should take us to the best between 3NT and 4♥. if partner bids 1♠ instead I think I would bid 3♦, but maybe 3NT on a good day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Most of us think that 3♦ is an underbid. I mean, vulnerable at IMPs, how would you be feeling if it goes all pass? For the sake of argument, let's pretend that partner responded 1♠ instead. Would you still rebid 3♦, or would you consider a reverse into 2♥ if ... - 1. You have no agreement. 2♥ is a natural reverse.- 2. You have a gadget. 2♥ is an ambiguous reverse, and responder has a 2NT relay available to ask for clarification. As for 2., this is how the top Italian pairs play 2♥ in this situation. Similarly, on the actual hand, they can make a 2♠ jump shift without promising a suit. Can be a hand too strong for a 3♦ rebid like here, with or without 3-card heart support, but can also be natural, 4-5+ in spades and diamonds. Again, 2NT asks for clarification. How do you like that? RolandPeachy keen, but completely inconsistent with your original problem statement You are playing in the Yeh Bros Cup when this hand comes up. Your system is natural, and you open 1♦. Partner responds 1♥. There are 1001 ways to solve this problem using any number of gadgets: * Play a forcing pass opening system* Play a strong club system* Use a 2♠ opening to show precisely ♠ A10♥A42♦KQT9653♣A And, of course, there's always the option to multiplexing some awkward hand types into the auction 1m - 1M2m+1 I don't find it particularly surprising that folks who have a gadget available to show a particular hand type do well when it crops up. I also don't mind posts that are intended to show how a hand might present an awkward rebid for standard methods. However, it seems odd to start a poll based on natural bidding and then to suddenly shift gears... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 Assuming I have no fancy agreements: 3D. The hand is nice, but basically 3D says this, it ismax., maybe super max., but the hand is still in range for a 3D bid. With kind regardsMarlowe PS: If you want to go artificial#1 play 2NT as forcing, showing a 6 carder#2 invert the meaning of 2D and 3D, i.e. 2D becomes forcing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 It's not surprising that the Italians have methods for this hand type... I suspect that Meckwell would have, as well, if they didn't play a big club and so don't have to worry about it. But, absent those specific agreements, I really don't see any alternative to 3♦. It falls into the category of 'wtp?', in that it is a difficult hand, the proposed easy rebid is clearly problematic, but it is so far ahead of all other alternatives that it really is a wtp. A fake jump shift establishes a gf.. which is almost as much an overbid as 3♦ is an underbid. The worst problem with the fake jumpshift is that partner may fit the jumpshift suit and we may never be able to show our hand type. Partner can easily be 4=4 in the majors, and what do we bid over 3♠, if he raises? Don't tell me that 4♦ or 4♥ are natural here.... they don't, not for a second, show that our jump was a fake. And over 3♣? 3♣ at least has going for it that it is the most often faked jumpshift, and we can always correct clubs to diamonds at any level, unlike our problem in spades.. but we will still hate it if partner raises. The biggest downside of 3♦ is that partner will pass when we can make a game... but if he doesn't pass, at least we stand the maximal chance of landing in the right denomination at the right level... besides, opposite a modern 1♥ response, we haven't made game yet :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skjaeran Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 3♦ for me. Not perfect, but unless you've got a special gadget, anything else is far worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echognome Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 By the way, my answer to "If you had a special gadget for this hand, would you prefer that if the hand comes up?" is "Yes." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pirate22 Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 yes, i have not seen yet a rebid of 2cl surely, this is forward going,as opposed to 3 cl 2cl would be my bid and await developements regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skjaeran Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 yes, i have not seen yet a rebid of 2cl surely, this is forward going,as opposed to 3 cl 2cl would be my bid and await developements regards You're joking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtvesuvius Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 2cl would be my bid and await developementsPass with a 3=4=2=4 9 count is a development? or how about a 3=3=3=4? hmm... LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matmat Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 yes, i have not seen yet a rebid of 2cl surely, this is forward going,as opposed to 3 cl 2cl would be my bid and await developements regards You're joking? maybe he means opening 2♣ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilkaz Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 I'm in the 3♦ camp here. I don't like it, but lacking a gadget, I think it's best. If PD responded 1♥ on junk and passes, I'm happy and if he has 5+♥ and rebids them we can go to game. If he rebids something else, I am happy also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hanp Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 I suspect Kokish-Kraft would rebid 2D. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 I thought I would add another plug for the jump rebid of a minor as forcing. 3♦ natural and forcing describes this hand quite well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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