Below freezing

[jillybean]

[hv=d=s&v=a&n=sa632hq864dk853cq&s=skt85hj97daj94cj5]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     -     -     Pass

 Pass  1♦    2♣    Dbl

 Pass  2♥    Pass  3♦

 Pass  3♠    Pass  3NT

 Dbl   Pass  Pass  Pass

 

 

Who gets the blame?

[matmat]

the 3N on the south cards is interesting

[dicklont]

West :lol:

 

This is a very good hand for partnership discussion.

First question: is an immediate 2♥/♠ by south forcing or not.

It should be, but not everybody plays it like that.

Here in Holland the majority play it non-forcing 8-11 hcp.

They must double first with stronger hands.

 

When a new suit is forcing, dbl shows at least 4-3 in the majors, ok?

2♥ I want to play there. Can south bid 2♠ now?

Most times north won't have both majors. Does 2♠ by south imply a diamond fit too?

With these things undiscussed I agree with 3♦ by south, although pass is certainly an option.

Maybe north should have passed, but he knows there must be a spade fit and he is not 100% certain about the diamond fit, but the level is already become too high.

Now south becomes irrational. North signed off in 2♥, he's not suddenly holding a strong hand with club stoppers.

 

Long story short: 70% south, 30% undiscussed bidding situation.

[paulg]

I'd blame the bidding box manufacturer (or perhaps Fred if on BBO) for not providing North and South with more Pass cards.

 

It was not compulsory for North to open this moth-eaten hand. 4441 distributions are never as powerful as they look, although it must be said that this one does not look very powerful.

 

I wonder if South thought that North had reversed with 2♥? I'd pass 2♥ as the best of a bad job, at least we've found a fit at the 2-level and there is no guarantee of a better one as partner could be 3=4=3=3.

 

I can understand North's desire to play in spades and the correction to a known fit. However you are not making game and it is IMPs, so no need to make a correction that invites partner to overbid.

 

In essence, after opening North should be looking to pass at the first legitimate opportunity.

 

South's 3NT is an interesting treatment in a B/I game. It certainly sounds natural but clearly promises only a poor half-stop. I think Pass would have been more prudent.

 

Finally, North and South were both unlucky to find that their stack of Pass cards had been replenished and they were able to use these over the double of 3NT, when bidding 4♠ could only improve the situation.

 

I often accuse B/I players of overbidding good hands and underbidding bad ones. North and South have highlighted the dangers of teaching this philosophy. Particularly North who seems to have found three bids on a grotty 11 count opposite a passed partner :lol:

[Hanoi5]

I blame South for bidding 3NT. Another possibility is that North had bid 3♣ over the double giving partner a choice in the Majors :lol:

[hotShot]

South has to take most of the blame.

North opened in 3rd seat and the hand is not good enough to open with 9 HCP (don't count single honors, unless it's the ace).

South seems to be unaware that his t/o / neg. dbl is forcing. North 2♥ bid is no reverse, it's even nonforcing.

South promised ♥ and ♠, that makes 3♦ to a game try showing a double fit or it implies that South has only 3♥.

Since North 2♥ bid was nonforcing, his 3♠ bid can't be 4sf. It's just a correction to a better fit showing 4432, 4441 or 4450 shape. North hand is unbalanced and does not have a ♣ stopper.

South 3NT bid should promise a ♣ stopper.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 1D ok, if the partnership likes to open trash, the only excuse being,

that you are in 3rd seat

But keep in mind, that lots of players still like to open solid even in

3rd seat, if they choose to open with a minor.

#2 X is fine

#3 2H is ok, 2S is better, at least if you plan to bid on over 3C, because

now you have a easy 3H bid available, allowing p to choose between

3H and 3S

Not that I am saying you should bid on over 3C, but if you plan ...

#4 3D is mediocrite, you risk playing a 4-3 fit on the 3 level instead of the

2 level

#5 3S is ..., see #3

#6 I guess South took 3S as forcing, and I agree, well given the 2H bid it gets

problematic, but ...

If South took 3S as forcing, I can understand South bidding on, of course

at some pont in time you should ask yourself, if you have the needed

stopper

#7 Passing the double, ... of course where do you want to run

 

Who gets the most blame, I dont know, I agree only with one bid #2, so I would

say both are equally to blame.

Going for -1400, just ignore and forget the hand, sometimes it is better to move

on.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: Just read cardsharps comment, that the Pass cards magically disappeared

from the boxes, and only at the fourth round reappeated, it makes a lot of sense.

So a general advice: Go to your local witch hunter, and try to find the guy, who

sold its poor sould for a contract with the devil.

The good news is, that in a couple of years, the guy wont feel, that he is freezing.

[david_c]

I'd blame North for the 3♠ bid. With partner being a passed hand and having a subminimum opener himself, North should have been delighted to be able to pass 3♦. While I can understand the thought that 3♠ ought to be just as good a contract as 3♦, you shouldn't take the risk of partner bidding on.

 

[Edit:] On second thoughts, South's decision to play in 3NT was surely even worse. Particularly after being doubled. It couldn't be more obvious that clubs aren't stopped.

[Gerben42]

I would have been happy to pass 3♦. The 3♠ bid was optimistic, ill judged, you name it, but not good listening to the auction. Partner is a passed hand, what do you want to play?

 

On the other hand, South should not have bid 3♦ right away, but bid 2♠ instead. This is no longer based on a long ♠ suit (he would bid that directly with a passed hand), but asks partner to choose a suit other than ♥, in particular ♠ or ♦.

 

Note that had South not been a passed hand, 2♠ would have been natural with long ♠, nonforcing if a direct 2♠ is forcing, and forcing if a direct 2♠ is nonforcing.

 

North will quickly throw in 2♠, resulting in lots of happiness on the NS axis.

[helene_t]

1♦: It strikes me as pointless to open this hand vulnerable. North doesn't particularly want a diamond lead, and he won't be happy passing a 2♣ response from South. When you open a subminium in 3rd seat, consider if you can comfortably pass any response from partner, since that is the only way to show a subminimum (other than Drury if you play that).

 

dbl: fine.

 

2♥: fine.

 

3♦: fine. I don't think 2♠ is an option - I think that would show a weak hand with six spades or five good ones, notwithstanding the fact that SOuth didn't open 2♠.

 

3♠: Understandable but apparently South expected North to have extra values or at least something resembling a real opening. This is something for N/S to discuss - do we open very light in 3rd seat and if so, how do we avoid this kind of disasters? Does opener have to pass ASAP or does responder still have to cater for subminimum after opener rebids voluntarily?

 

3NT: Maybe South though he had already promised a 4-card spades by not raising spades, but even so, don't bid 3NT without a stopper. Even if North has a stopper (which the auction suggest he hasn't, after all he bid all the three other suits), 3NT would be wrongsided.

 

Pass: If the negative double promises at least one 4-card major, North should run now, at least after 3NT got doubled.

[Codo]

1 ♦: No way, not even in 3. seat

 

X fine

 

2 ♥ fine

 

3♦ No way. When you decide to double and hear 2 ♥, play there. Pd may have a 4432 where you play now a 4-3 fit on level higher and there is a big chance that pd may misuderstand you anyway, because many take this as game try in hearts.

 

3♠ Obviosuly North understood south as having 4 spades and 3 hearts and tried to play in the major fit. But I still don't like the bid, I would pass.

 

3 NT South had no more clue about the bidding and got nervous. He did not understood 3 Spade as four Spades but as a game try. But he should bid 4 Diamond, he has no stopper.

 

pass I have 11 rooten HCPs, no length and a passed partner. Which trick do I expect against 3 NT? 4 Diamond is it.

 

pass: I have no stopper, so how can I pass now? I need to bid 4 Diamond or 4 Spade.

 

So both are guilty. I won't rate who did the bigger crime against bridge.

[Trumpace]

I don't understand why people say that North should run from 3NT doubled.

 

I think it should be South.

[bid_em_up]

South has to take most of the blame.

South has to take most all of the blame.

[RichMor]

I would have been happy to pass 3♦. The 3♠ bid was optimistic, ill judged, you name it, but not good listening to the auction. Partner is a passed hand, what do you want to play?

 

On the other hand, South should not have bid 3♦ right away, but bid 2♠ instead. This is no longer based on a long ♠ suit (he would bid that directly with a passed hand), but asks partner to choose a suit other than ♥, in particular ♠ or ♦.

 

Note that had South not been a passed hand, 2♠ would have been natural with long ♠, nonforcing if a direct 2♠ is forcing, and forcing if a direct 2♠ is nonforcing.

 

North will quickly throw in 2♠, resulting in lots of happiness on the NS axis.

Agree with all of this, especially 'South should....bid 2♠ instead'.

 

I think it is standard for North to rebid 2♥ in response to a negative double with 4-4 in the majors. When South continues with 2♠ over 2♥, that should show 4 Spades, 4 Diamonds, and fewer than 4 Hearts.

[Echognome]

Lots of blame to go around. Here are my thoughts on some of the calls:

 

1♦ Why? I don't mind opening light in 3rd, but there should be a purpose and ideally a good suit.

Dbl Seems reasonable

2♥ North has to bid something at this point, so 2♥ seems ok.

3♦ Unlike other posters, I think this shows 5 spades, as 2♠ over 2♣ would show a better hand than double then 2♠. So I like 3♦

3♠ Why? Partner is a passed hand. We aren't doubled yet. Besides, 3♠ doesn't sound like a suit, so much as a probe for 3NT. I think the fact that North is a 4=4=4=1 minimum, does not make 3♠ show this hand.

3NT Huh? No matter how I take 3♠, I don't have a 3NT call.

Pass Both should run for the hills over the double.

[1eyedjack]

Everyone accepts that X of 2C is fine. I think that 2D raise should at least be considered as a reasonable alternative (even if you then dismiss it!). I would be more worried about missing a spade partscore at MP, but we should still find a Spade game if there is one to be had. Yes, you could be playing in a 4-3 Diamond fit when you have a 4-4 Spade fit, but alternatives carry similar risks.

[gwnn]

I'd like to pass 2♥, but that's not quite clear. That's not a big deal. After all, game is still possible from south's pov.

 

North's 3♠ and South's 3NT bid, along both of their passes of 3NTx'ed are really bad, I think, for all the reasons everyone mentioned.

 

I would like to mention that there is no temperature below -489 F.

[jillybean]

[hv=d=s&v=a&n=sa632hq864dk853cq&s=skt85hj97daj94cj5]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

- - - Pass

Pass 1♦ 2♣ Dbl

Pass 2♥ Pass 3♦

Pass 3♠ Pass 3NT

Dbl Pass Pass Pass

 

I was south and this was my thinking;

 

1♦ (2♣) I have a reasonable hand, we may belong in ♠'s or ♦'s so I double. Im a passed hand, no fear of getting too high.

 

2♥ .. so I correct to 3♦

Perhaps I should pass 2♥

 

 

3♠ partners looking for game, can he be 44 in the majors? If he is why didnt he bid game, he knows I have 4♠'s. Or leave it in 3♦ if he's not wanting to be in game. Maybe he is asking for ♠ stop, I have it and if its wrong he'll correct to 4something.

 

3nt (dbl) pass (pass) I should have pulled to 4♦ I guess but was hoping 3nt was right.

[1eyedjack]

You certainly have one point right, I think, and that is not to get bullied out of 3N by the double. It is getting into 3N that was the problem, but you will find players doubling your cold 3N to get you to run if you foster a reputation for running then.

[Stephen Tu]

My opinion

 

- opener really shouldn't open with a sub min 4441 with a stiff Q

- neg double is fine, responder is strong enough

- opener should bid 2s IMO in case overcaller bids 3c so he can offer 3h

- neg doubler 3d is fine, I agree 2s should show neg free bid in spades 5+ cds and not necessarily show diamond support, and would be forcing free bid if negative free bids were played

 

3♠ partners looking for game, can he be 44 in the majors? If he is why didnt he bid game, he knows I have 4♠'s. Maybe he is asking for ♠ stop, I have it and if its wrong he'll correct to 4something.

 

- opener *cannot* be trying for game, when he bid only 2H, which was min & non-forcing. Bids are always constrained by prior actions. Why can't he just have a min 4-4-3-2 and be pulling to the known fit trying for the best partial?

 

- in ambiguous situations the stopper in the opponent's suit is always most critical. If you are going to misinterpret as a stopper ask you have to assume it is asking about clubs.

[jillybean]

- opener *cannot* be trying for game, when he bid only 2H, which was min & non-forcing.  Bids are always constrained by prior actions.

I missed that...as a junior would say, I suck at this game

[gwnn]

- opener should bid 2s IMO in case overcaller bids 3c so he can offer 3h

Disagree strongly. As always, you bid the cheaper of the suits (♥) in case partner has a weakish hand with a long cheaper suit (♥).

[jdonn]

Hi Jilly. I think you could have figured out partner was minimum with 4-4 in the majors and just looking for a fit.

 

If 3♠ was forcing with both majors, partner would have bid 3♣ over the negative double. Never forget to consider what partner didn't do!

 

And 3♠ won't be asking for a spade stopper for two reasons. One is you have already shown/implied four spades, so while it's possible they could be four small it tends not to be something worth worrying about. The other is that the opponents bid clubs, so that is the suit partner will mainly be worrying about.

 

I disagree with others about the 3♠ bid, you must have four spades so I don't see why it wouldn't just be natural. It's true partner could just pass 3♦ and probably should since he is so minimum, but I don't think that means 3♠ either means something else or is wrong.

 

Finally I disagree with the last poster about not running. Not getting pushed around is all well and good, but I'd rather have a reputation as someone who doesn't go for 1400! :) Seriously you can see you don't have a club stopper so it's easy to imagine things have gone a little haywire. You don't want to risk a huge disaster.

 

We have all gone for large numbers before, it's all just a learning experience.

[helene_t]

- opener *cannot* be trying for game, when he bid only 2H, which was min & non-forcing.  Bids are always constrained by prior actions. Why can't he just have a min 4-4-3-2 and be pulling to the known fit trying for the best partial?

Of course he could try for game after having bid 2♥. It is nonforcing but that doesn't mean that it denies the values for game opposite a maximum passed hand.

 

I don't know if I would take 3♠ as a contract improvement (typically 4432 13 points) or as a game try (typically 4441 14 points). Fortunately the difference is not so big, the 2♥ bid does indeed constrain the set of hands North can have.

[Stephen Tu]

Disagree strongly. As always, you bid the cheaper of the suits (♥) in case partner has a weakish hand with a long cheaper suit (♥).

 

Well I disagree strongly with you. If partner has a neg free bid hearts, you have a 9 cd heart fit and are extremely unlikely to be able to buy the contract for 2H. The opps surely will balance with 2s/3c. So there is no advantage in staying low vs. that hand.

 

One doesn't always bid the cheapest of suits when you might have a fit in either of them and want to show both. Similarly with 4-4 in the majors, not strong enough to cue-bid, one responds 1s to a takeout double of a minor anticipating a chance to bid 2h later.