Quantitative 4nt

[jillybean]

I open 1nt 15..17 (I have 17hcp)

P transfers then bids 4nt, we don’t have an agreement do I treat this as RKC or Q4nt?

 

How should I bid on from Q4nt, do I show aces, bid another 4 card suit ?

 

TYIA

Kathryn

[luis]

This is a recurrent question from intermediates and even advanced players, I'd recommend the following treatment that is -I think- faily common:

 

Use Texas or South African Transfers to transfer at the 4-level after 1NT (or 2NT).

Texas is: 4d->transfer to 4h, 4h->transfer to 4s

South African is: 4c->transfer to 4h, 4d->transfer to 4s

 

Then :

1N-4N is quantitative.

2-level transfer followed by 4NT is quantitative

4-level transfer followed by 4NT is RKCB

2-level transfer followed by game is mild slam try.

 

Variations are common among different partnerships.

 

With 17hcp your pd has a forcing to slam hand, not quantitative at all, so depending on his actual holding he has several different game forcing paths to explore for the best level and denomination.

 

a) Stayman

:( 2 level transfer followed by new suit (game forcing)

c) 4-level transfer followed by 4NT

d) Others depending on your agreements.

 

Luis

[mr1303]

Mike Lawrence on his conventions CD says that if you wish to ask for key cards following a 1NT opening, when you have a suit that you know you wish to be trumps, is to bid 4D/H as a texas transfer, and follow up the forced response with 4NT as RKCB, or bid 5X as Exclusion RKCB. Therefore the sequence 1NT 2H 2S 4NT is quantitative.

 

If it is quantitative, never show your aces. He isn't asking for them, and so showing them doesn't help him. On this hand, you have a maximum, so the only decision is which slam. Generally with 3 or 4 card support you should bid 6 of his suit in this auction. With a maximum and only 2 card support you can either try 6NT, or if you have a good 5/6 card minor, you can bid 5C/D.

 

Partner should not take this as showing any number of aces, but a hand that wishes to accept the invitation, offering another place to play. Note that with a minimum and 2 card support, you should pass.

 

I hope this clears things up for you.

 

Mark

[1eyedjack]

If it is quantitative, never show your aces. He isn't asking for them, and so showing them doesn't help him.

It has been known for the partnership to have a combined 32 count missing 2 aces after a quantitative 4N accepted. The quantitative 4N frequently has room for a slight ambiguity in the total values, depending on the width of the range of the 1N opener.

 

It is therefore not uncommon to agree to give an ace-count response to the quantitative 4NT bid if you have sufficient values to take some action other than pass.

 

Giving an ace count does therefore help partner, if it discloses that you are missing 2 aces and you have possibly misjudged the combined point count (although some 32 point hands will have a play for slam, maybe even an odds on play, if you are not missing two quick tricks).

 

It seems unlikely that giving an ace-count response when maximum will cost. It is not even likely to help the opponents significantly in defence, whether on lead at trick one or subsequently. It may give them an opportunity to double, but the odds are that the doubler is on lead.

[aisha759]

Isnt quantiative usually looking for a slam in NT?

I have noted down all the explanations on when 4nt is RKCB and when it is quantitative, but still a little confused.... with a pick up partnership, how can you tell which is which?

I was taught, that quantitative was directly after a NT opening; and gerber asking for aces... was i taught the wrong thing?

I play Acol with my "favorite" pd, and obviously quantitative does not come up very often, actually NEVER!! (well so far)

 

There are so many opinions.... are they opinions, or rules?

 

I am glad this subject was brought up.

 

I just dont understand why a 4nt would be quantitative after a transfer, texas, south african, ottoman, greco roman, or byzantinian... please explain.

 

After stayman, 4nt quantitative is logical, its after the transfer which has me confused... ( dont ask why, just explain pls)

 

Thank you all in advance

 

Aisha

[the hog]

The treatments described by Luis are fairly standard. When pd opens 1N, whatever the range, you may have a hand with a 6+ Major and the values to play in 6NT or 6 of that major if partner is maximum.

 

So, as described by Luis:

1N-4N is quantitative.

bal hand interested in 6 if opener is max

 

2-level transfer followed by 4NT is quantitative

Good 6 card Major, interested in 6M or NT if opener is max

 

4-level transfer followed by 4NT is RKCB

Good 6 card Major, playing in slam + in M if opener has the requisite KC

 

2-level transfer followed by game is mild slam try.

Else 4 level transfer followed by pass if not interested in progressing.

 

Ron

[Cascade]

2-level transfer followed by 4NT is quantitative

Good 6 card Major, interested in 6M or NT if opener is max

I would only play this for a five-card major.

[mishovnbg]

Hi Aisha!

"I just dont understand why a 4nt would be quantitative after a transfer, texas, south african, ottoman, greco roman, or byzantinian... please explain."

Several answers, pick up one you most like:

• 1. Bridge players are too lazy to use some science.
  
• 2. Atavistic principle - more have - more jump.
  
• 3. Logical continuation of nat 1NT opening - one of most difficulte openings, both with/without competition. If you don't agree just look unbelievable amount of conventions, invented after/vs this bad opening.
  
• 4. You need partner to bid final pass, to can ask him why he can't evaluate right his perfect 15hcp with 2 famous 10 :(
  
• 5. If you keep bidding low with such strong hand, more mistakes will be possible, because more free bids are available :(
  
• 6. Using any jump to 4NT as RKCB/BW isn't funny, because you can't do some enjoyable mistakes and it is just not fair for opps.
  

Misho

[EarlPurple]

You may play that you respond quant 4NT with aces but if partner then bids 5NT pass - do not show your kings!

[EarlPurple]

And South African Texas is an opening bid of 4♣ showing a good 4♥ opening, and an opening bid of 4♦ showing a good 4♠ opening, while opening bids are 4♥ and 4♠ are generally pure-pre-emptive.

 

In response to opening 4 of a minor, I think bidding the next suit is some kind of "last train" slam try, but those who know the convention better would probably be able to explain the methods in detail.

 

4♣ in response to 1NT is usually played as Gerber, thus ace-asking. You might want to do that with this hand:

 

♠x ♥KQx ♦KQJxxxx ♣Ax

 

If partner can show 2 aces in response to your 4♣ you can probably gamble on 6♦. If partner responds with one ace you will play in 5♦.

[Fluffy]

As I love to say: this is a game about tricks, not about points.

 

So if you have a 5 card major you really want to know if partner has 3 cards before taking any action, so a 3♣/♦ rebid after transfer looks the best aproach. So I beleive it will be RCK on this sequence.

 

Its true you can have a hand where the third card doesn´t matter: (♥KQJ104) then don´t even try to play in the suit.

 

All of the above is true when you don´t play anything at the 4 level. Still if you can transfer at level 4 and then use RCK, 4NT on this secuence should apply to the quantitative.